The Enclave debate on population got me thinking.

What are the numbers of BoS.

I can't find any canon info that gives list if numbers.

Anyone know of any?

I would assume though following what history I know there could be anywhere from 2000-4000 by FO2 time. With the potential for more.

BoS had two major events that would have decreased west numbers and one minor.

The MWBoS, and Lyons expedition. The West-Tec adventure being the minor.

I would imagine both major expeditions started with around 500 people, as they both suffered major casualties.

Anyone have any info?

I believe their numbers were only in the thirties to forties right after the Great War and due to them being against any sort of meeting with the outside world as of F2 I think there numbers wouldn't be that high.

Probably a few hundred, one thousand at best.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS AGAIN. ITS GOING TO BE ANOTHER NUMBERS FIGHT.

Anyway, their numbers are more accurately in the few hundreds. The BoS doesn't conscript outsiders in most cases. (Lyons BoS doesnt count as they are no longer recognised by the Elders back West. And the MWBoS went off the radars, so ultimately their numbers cant be explained. But before you say those numbers are low, bear in mind the BoS is a paramilitary organization like the Enclave, their whole lives revolve around militancy and training for their various careers.

As for Fallout 2, they were on a sharp decline at that time, as the one BoS member in San Francisco states.

Excluding the MWBOS, whose numbers could very well be in the several thousands, I wouldn't imagine the rest of the BOS numbers to be much more than 1500, 2000 would be pushing it I think.

Lyon's group (which shouldn't really be counted with the rest of the BOS) was probably a couple hundred or so during the events of Fallout 3. With the Outcasts taking off about a third of their original force.

ok im just going to throw numbers right outa my ass here

..in Cali, something like "in over all" 1000-1500ish? i assume they are in a defendable fort or something because the ncr is at "war" with them, meaning they cannot get a good grip on them. and with an army of about 50,000ish and 1 member - 10 ncr persons

in vegas, about 50-100, they are small threat to every big player fighting for new vegas

in DC...breaking orders and taking in the locals id say about 200-500

those are meh sixy made up numbers that i came up within 1 minute

No numbers were ever given as far as I can tell.

Brotherhood started out as the security team at Meriposa. Their families were on the base or close by when they moved to Lost Hills. This was around the start of 2078. I would say the biggest event in Brotherhood history after Fallout would be the air convoy that took place sometime before 2197. Maybe a decade before that. This is when the Brotherhood was at odds with itself. The debate was about letting in new blood into the Brotherhood. The Elders could not agree, but they did send "the minority" on a mission across the mountains to follow the fleeing Master's armies.

So the key here is "Minority." To me this would be anywhere from 1% to 49% of the total Brotherhood population. The mission they were sent on was seen as a suicide mission by many. So this could be that the whole air convoy mission was a way to win a civil war without firing a shot.

In Fallout 2 there is only two or three Brotherhood in the whole game. They were coming into contact with the Enclave. So their numbers reduced by the minority leaving weakend them, and then encounters with Enclave must have also taken a toll.

Then the war with NCR. Mr.House said something along the lines that most battles with NCR result with the BoS self destructing alot of the time.. was it 6 out of 8 battles that he knew of? something like that.

The Original Brotherhood are clearly on the decline, maybe a couple thousand spread out all across California.

The MWBoS are pretty much unknown. Depends on the outcome of Tactics. If things are going okay for them I would put their numbers at possibly tens of thousands spread out across the Midwestern United States, because they let in outsiders, and control towns. They aren't restricted by the lack of power armour and they are more of an army then the Original BoS. If their numbers get to low they will go out and "recruit" new people.

Lyon's BoS I would put at a couple hundred and growing.

The reason I ask is the Mariposa base was commanded by a Colonel. At tops I pretty sure a Colonel would be in command of 5000. Take into consideration there is a war going on, I would estimate maybe 1000 troops, and their families to start, and casualties on the exodus to Lost Hills.

Seems like 1000 is a very common number in FO.

So if 1000, at tops there would be 16000 BoS in all of USA, but have to minus the mad casualties from NCR war, etc, and I would say no more than 10K who could trace lineage back to Mariposa.

Btw, 50% casualty rate is a lot.

And Col Martyr you really need to chill out man. Lol. I was pretty proud of my Enclave theory. And I felt it, and still do, feel it very possible. But as soon as the food thing got squashed, not one "well... that could have happened". I think need group hug instead of nitpicking. Even Styles can use a hug. (HUG)

But Maxson wasn't in charge, he was more or less head of Security, I doubt 1000 troops would be sustainable at Lost Hills, plus Mariposa is a top secret research base at the time of the War.

It was a joke dude. Food thing didn't get crushed, I just realized you won't listen to reason, so I gave up, much like I am with this thread.

Your numbers are really high. I expect two hundred (including families) at the most.

And I am glad I wasn't given a hug. I dislike hugs.

Just because you are a Colonel doesn't mean you are incharge of large numbers of people. You can be a General and be in charge of nothing. Like Patton was after Sicily and before D-day.

Also as Col Martyr pointed out, Mariposa was a top secret military base, and the troops there were just for security. So the less people you have there the better. So the number of early Brotherhood that had any military background would be very low. Maybe a couple hundred at max. Their families lived on the base or were close by, so if you coun't their wives and kids as "Brotherhood" then their numbers would be higher by maybe a couple hundred more.

Where I think Col Martyr is some what off is that Lost Hills wasn't an island for the BoS, they did spread out and formed other bunkers, as seen in Fallout 2, with locations in San Francisco, the Den and NCR (Shady Sands), so they have/had places thoughout what is now NCR.

Lost Hill also traded with outsides such as the water merchants, so the BoS didn't have to survive on what Lost Hills could produce, if it ran out of water. They would get more.

Well, I gonna say this.

Population doubles about every 50 years.

So if 400, by the time of FO3, you have 4 doubles.

So 800, 1600, 3200, 6400.

Patton was removed from command, hence why no troops when he was a Gen.

This guy was not. It brand new base. Bases generally hold anywhere from 10-20K troops.

I think 1000 is very conservative. Guys, isn't there a over population problem 2077? FEV info leaked, people aleady been rioting, and 200 troops?

Col, says right in Vault handbook. Hydro-agricultural farms.

"Welcome to the CoG base, Bob". "Umm where the food?" "Oh, snap. Darn".
But, I don't want to sidetrack this with food.

There are several thousand people in New Reno. Tens of thousands in NCR.

There were over 3k people in my HS... and it not very big.

The NCR circa FO3 prolly 40-60k? Can't remember if they gave a pop in NV or not.

But 10k BoS in the entire USA not too much. In the west they prolly outnumbered 10-1.

This was not a standard military base, it was a research center for a top secret expermental chemical that even the soldiers there didn't know about until right before the Great War.

Sebor, myself and others are right in that Mariposa was a top secret military research area. It wasn't a standard military base. The troops that were there were only for security, 10 to 20 thousand people is way overboard for security.

Just because the guy running it was a Colonel doesn't give any clues as to how many people were under his command. Patton was just one example, there are many high ranking people that don't command thousands of people. Since these soldiers were not in China on the frontlines, their leader was most likely just a office Colonel, a pencil pusher, and yes the military has such people.

Population doubles every 50 years if everything goes right. As we know for the BoS things didn't go right. They lost troops to the Master, to the Enclave, and most of all to NCR. They even lost almost half their people to internal conflicts.

The Original BoS is on a losing side of a war with NCR. It might already be over given how NCR doesn't even talk much about it in New Vegas. What they do talk about it, it is in past tense. I am sure they are still around but their numebrs aren't that high.

Lyons BoS is still growing, so a couple hundred at best and they don't recruit advlts from what I can tell. They take in young kids and train them, still better then not taking anyone.

The MWBoS could very well be in the tens of thousands, given they "recruit" people of pretty much any age. This could also include mutants. They aren't restricted by PA. Not everyone gets PA in the MWBoS.

No not all necessarily.

Perfect example in the fallout world is Colonel Autumn, who is certainly not in control of 5000 troops.

However as a good example in the real world (which I assume is more relevant), my university's military science department is headed by a Colonel, and he is certainly not in charge of anywhere close to that many troops. When he is in active duty perhaps and his brigade fully assembled, but at the moment he is in a similar position to an individual on a military base, not necessarily commanding all the troops that he (theoretically) could.

In other words, if a nuclear war were to occur at this moment and he was forced to implement military maneuvers with just the men he has at his disposal now, he'd be left with little more than a few hundred. The vast majority of which would be cadets.

Now a university ROTC program may not be the best comparison to Mariposa, but the point remains that simply because the commander was a colonel doesn't mean 5000 soldiers were at the base. Furthermore, we see that regardless of the numbers, none of the soldiers knew what was actually going on, so we must assume that the numbers were fairly low if that kind of secrecy was maintained.


Yes but when the entire population of the earth may be only measured in the millions post-war, it is a big number.

True, but it is war time, and he is active duty, and Maxson is a Captain, and we have to assume there are also other officers and ncos and such.

Because of the conditions, wartime etc, I said 1000. The point of my HS was the size of the building.

I would imagine Mariposa was at least the size of my HS, if not bigger. If my HS only had 1000 instead of the 3k+, it would almost appear abandoned.

What goes on inside is top secret. Unless the entire facility was underground, people see it. And top secret places tend to have beefed up security, to make sure nobody gets in. 24/7 security. To maintain highest level of awareness, probably 3 eight hour shifts.

Also, top secret prolly means this colonel is not a pencil pusher total screw up.

I understand not having full regiment, which is why I said a 1000, and that really is not that much, given the overall size of the place. But 200... man that would be pushing it on effective security. Heck, I bet most airports today have more security than that.

Nothing says "Attack Here" better than alot of defences. Since Mariposa wasn't attacked during the great war, this would mean that it wasn't known to enemies of America. So it did a great job at not being seen.

A thousand people to guard Mariposa would be to much.. Unless you are including kids and wives of those stationed at or close by Mariposa to equal 1000 people. If that is the case, then I would have to agree that could be a plausible number. I would also imagine that the military people would also take other workers at Mariposa, that didn't play a role in the FEV research. So the number of people there with military training would be at max a couple hundred. But throw in all the others that I listed, then 1000 could be in the ball park.

As for the BoS having tens of thousands. If you are just lumping "The Original BoS" including the Mojave Chapter, "The Midwestern Brotherhood" and "Lyons BoS" into one big group known as "The Brotherhood of Steel" then I would agree that 10 to 20 thousands Brotherhood could be in the ball park. Spread out across most of America.

The largest force by far would be the Midwestern Brotherhood, but that's really up to Bethesda. The MWBoS could be a respectable power, maybe the third largest faction known, or it could be just a small group in Chicago (I hope its the former).

Then it would be the Original BoS but their numbers are declining big time.

Followed by Lyon's BoS which is very small but growing slowly.

Outcast I would include as part of the Original BoS, but they most likely would just fade into history or start a Chapter somewhere and stay small until they too die out or are wiped out.

Welp. I looked up the layout of Mariposa on wiki.

Living quarters area is 60,000 sq feet. Just for soldiers. That is almost the size of an American football field. If broken up into 12x12 rooms, very cozy accommodations for soldiers, that could house 400. Seeing how most grunts do not havw their own private room and I doubt the base was designed so, at LEAST 600 troops could be bunked there, probably more.

The previous level also had guards barracks, and the level under scientist housing and base commander. It a huge base.

I can see the BoS starting out at 1000 at Lost Hills, including women and children, maybe even a few hundred more. But I consider that a very large base, entire thing about the size of four football fields.

Also I am saying about 10k, across America, who could trace their bloodline to Mariposa. This would be WC, Mojave, MW, and DC.

Meh double post.

Just to be clear. Do you mean 1000 soilders then, women, children and other non-military people to makes over a 1000. Or soldiers, women, children and non-military staff to make 1000?

Cause I agree that if you add up the soldiers, women, children and non-military staff, that could add up to a thousand people.

Ahhhhhh......Hmmmmmmm. I could have a field day with this one!! Lol. I remember a certain debate on why he was not General Autumn....

Even if you think he's not the top commander for whatever reason or if you think there's more Enclave out there, the point is that regardless he is not in command of 5000 troops in Fallout 3. Period. That's my point.

Yes. Total troops at Mariposa probably about 1k on Oct 22, 2077.

Taking their families and non-military personnel with them on Exodus to Lost Hills, suffering casualties along the way, about 1000 people, men, women, and children survive to go on to form The Brotherhood of Steel. With at most, 300-400 more tops, so my guess would be 1000-1400

1000 to 1400 people after you add up military and civilian numbers, I can see being a reasonable approximation for when the BoS formed at Lost Hills.

One of the counters to why he not Gen Autumn was number of troops under his command, so no reason to be a General.

Here you say troop numbers don't matter. And ya, I do think there a Enclave general out there, cuz I think there are more Enclave than you guys do.

Even though BoS came up with their own names for stuff, they basically have a general, too. The High Elder.

Wow. Styles and I agree with something. I think I just heard the air raid sirens......