Airships were first built by the West Coast BoS to send their unwanted on a mission to hunt the super mutants from The Master's army who had retreated to the area near Chicago.

Given that Lyons came from the WCBoS himself, its likely some of his scribes, such as Rothchild, knew how to build such airships all along, they simply lacked the resources and manpower to do so.

With the defeat of The Enclave, the breaking of the super mutant horde, the destruction of Talon Company, and the activation of the water purifier, the Lyons BoS would be seen as heroes, and people would naturally flock to them, bolstering their ranks, possibly enough to be able to get the resources needed to make an airship.

Firstly, in Fallout 3, Lyon's himself notes that the BoS has been suffering in California, for years. So their decline has been a continuous one, getting more and more extreme to the point we see in NV. As far as we know, the NCR-BoS war was taking place during the time of Lyon's journey east (if Van Buren's time is taken into account,) which would have clearly put a chokehold on the BoS's supply capabilities. It's just logical that it would have, considering the BoS's ability to recruit and gather resources from outside. Going to the MWBoS would have made sense, but not going clear across the country to DC. If the situation back in California was so bad, and at that point Lyon's was still very much apart of the WCBoS mentality, why keep going East and not just turn back to help? Going East for some Super Mutants that don't even pose a threat to the xenophobic and apathetic WCBoS, makes no sense for the WC Elders to send manpower that far, when they're in the middle of a war. It's just a cheap excuse for the BoS going to the Capital Wasteland. A poorly written and reasoned story.

And I keep saying it, because it's the matter of this whole issue, not the story of the BoS in Fallout 3, that I was using as an example of Beth thinking the BoS had to be in every game, but that they shoehorned the BoS into the title because they felt the BoS needed to be everywhere. Your excuse and use of a weak and illogical story, created by Beth to inject the BoS however they could into Fallout 3, doesn't counter my position at all of them shoehorning.

And it is pure speculation on your part, and subjective views about the Legion, that people would complain about them having been introduced by Beth. For anyone who knew about Van Buren's existence, as many old Fallout fans did, the Legion wouldn't have been a shoehorned faction, or unoriginal faction to bring in, because it was a faction intended to be apart of the original Fallout 3 game, Van Buren to begin with. They would have just moved them from the Southwest, to East, and seeing as the Legion wasn't yet fleshed out, like the BoS obviously was, it wouldn't have been a big deal to change their origin story a bit. But as I said, it's pure speculation on your part, assuming people would have been upset about that, and doesn't add anything into this conversation about the BoS being shoehorned into Fallout 3 by Beth, and that Beth feels the need to inject the BoS into Fallout, because otherwise it isn't a Fallout game.

I disagree completely with everything that you are saying. You apparently seem to feel the same way, even though you're entirely wrong about the NCR-BoS war, FYI. Go to the link and read up.

I will leave the discussion at that, now I am wasting my time.

Ignored.

IIRC, part of the reason they sent him west was to make sure there wasn't another "Master" type figure controlling these mutants. While they may not have been a problem now, left unchecked, and under the Influence of a Master level figure, the super mutants could have posed a threat to everyone.

Winning the current war means nothing if you want win the one after it because you let that enemy gather more strength then you can counter. That is just basic thinking ahead.

They were motivated to do the expedition for two reasons: 1) The super mutant threat (potentially) - as you mentioned, and 2) The looming problems that would occur if they forced everyone to stay under the same roof. I imagine a schism would have been far more brutal had they all been under one roof, rather than being sent on some "recon" duty.

Fo3 does show how much of a threat the Super Mutants are, though. They were kidnapping and introducing people to the FEV - essentially a continuance of the Master's work.

You should read the wiki page on the actual NCR-BoS War, that's where I got it all from. Go to Elder Lyon's wiki page, it will show you the quote of him talking about the BoS having a hard time in the West. It also says it on the NCR-BoS war page, FYI. If you're unwilling to take into consideration actual points, it shows your position is weak, and you have nothing to stand on. You are the one who's wrong, and completely ignoring what is logical and illogical for a faction like the WCBoS who's in a war, has limited recruiting capabilities, and short supplies. You're ignoring actual valid points backed by lore and reason, and trying to bring up others that don't even have anything to do with what we're talking about (the Legion,) making comments that are pure speculation.

You're free to disagree with everything I've said, but you're not putting anything up against it, that wasn't weak and illogical lore, set by Bethesda to shoehorn the BoS into Fallout 3, making them a "staple" of Fallout. Which, again, my original point was that the BoS doesn't need to be in every Fallout game, for the game to be a Fallout one. But your post looks like another attempt at deflection, trying to say you're again wasting your time, when you've spent so much trying to debate on weak ground, about a weak story.

And why would Super Mutants across the country, posing this threat to people on the East Coast, be of any concern to the WCBoS Elders who are apathetic and uncaring for anyone outside their bunkers, and at the time, likely in a heated war with a much larger threat? If it doesn't threaten the BoS immediately, the Elders don't care, that's been shown plenty of times, in lore and in-game. Them sending those who eventually make up the MWBoS, after the remnants of the Master's Army, who obviously know about the WCBoS, and likely want revenge on them, that makes some sense. But sending their own contingent of capable fighting men/women, across the country to fight Super Mutants that pose no threat, don't know about the WCBoS, could possibly be heard about and stopped by the MWBoS, makes no sense. And as I said, it was just a cheap way for Beth to shoehorn the BoS into Fallout 3.

That's true.

But there can be an explanation. The Brohood in the west had already succumbed to megalomania, leading to their inevitable demise. Everything plays out smoothly.

There is an explanation. The question is whether people are willing to accept it.

Beth already has an explanation, but it's clearly a weak and illogical one, even if some people don't want to see it for what it is. It doesn't take into account the WCBoS's limited capabilities due to their xenophobia and tech-hordeing mentality, and the situation they're likely in post-Fallout 2, with the NCR.

But I've digressed about this enough with others. The whole point, and what I was saying to begin with, is to be a Fallout game, we don't need the BoS or other already established factions in it, even if people think that to be a Fallout game, you need groups like the BoS or whoever they might say.

Is it just me or does the BOS airship kind of look a lot like a Giant Laser weapon with that long underrail and the weird loopy nose ?

http://i.imgur.com/KqBWx3k.jpg

and

http://racketmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Airship_Fallout.jpg

1. Wikis don't always have accurate information. There is a lot of speculation on them.

2. Van Buren isn't canon, and it's timeline is not accurate at all with the current canon time line, due to New Vegas. So we have no idea what year the actual NCR-BoS war started. But, I highly doubt it had been going on for 20 some years or so, which is roughly about the time Lyons left for the east. It is possible the NCR BoS war didn't even start until after FO3.

I understand why Bethesda included the BoS, Enclave and supermutants in F3; it was to establish solid connections with the older games. Lore-wise it may or may not have been a stretch ...

I still think the basic Fallout concept is expansive enough that it can omit the old guard factions and introduce new ones. So I'll be vaguely disappointed about the BoS in F4 but it won't kill the game for me; I'll just hope they aren't in F5 or any spinoffs.

Everyone wants new factions.

But then again, people would b--- that the old ones weren't there. Like the BOS, who have had a joinable presence since the original.

A Catch 22.

Wow, very heated debate going on here. Well, I'm going to put my two cents in:

I don't really see WHY Elder Lyons Capital Wasteland Brotherhood of Steel would show up in Boston. I mean, right now it doesn't make much sense for either Sarah Lyons or her father to send soldiers up to Boston. I do see two scenarios though as to why we see the CWBOS there:

1. Neither Owyn or Sarah Lyons are in charge of the CWBOS anymore; Owyn was 75 in FO3, if more than 10 years has passed, there's a good chance he might've passed away of old age and Sarah is in charge now. This could've created an instability in the CWBOS and Protector Casidin used this opportunity too usurp control from Sarah. From what is said in game, Casidin was the head paladin prior to Owyn's "going native", and that a lot of men and women in the BOS that aren't native recruits still respect Casidin, which is why you occasionally hear people mention about someone "leaving" them to head over to the Outcasts.
2. Either Sarah or Owyn's (if he's still kicking depending on how many years is between FO3 and FO4) is leading the CWBOS up north due too the Super Mutant movement. Though this would beg the question, why such a large force?

Now I do view the West Coast Brotherhood of Steel a likely contender to be in the Boston Wasteland... why is that? Because they are losing the BOS-NCR war. It would make a lot of sense for them to leave the West Coast with their remaining forces and head east, out of the NCR's influence and too far for the NCR forces to mount an expedition to finish them off in order to save themselves. They somehow got word of the Institute and their androids... maybe they actually caught/killed one, which lead them to investigate the android rumors, and the elders, believing that building an android force that could think and act like humans, would make an excellent way to bolster their forces. But they are too sophisticated too reverse engineer, so off they go too Boston. As for the presence of Vertibirds and airships, we really don't know if the WC elders sent all the airships east with the group that would eventually become the Mid-West Brotherhood, or if they later built more that had yet to be completed by the time Lyons left for the east; and it's possible that the WCBOS have the Vertibird plans, or they managed to steal/copy the plans from the NCR or the Shi. Or perhaps they found an Enclave storage hanger somewhere along the way/in Boston that held a number of Vertibirds, or capable of building them. I know, big stretch, but that's what speculation is all about;)

As for the Mid-West BOS, it's possible that they are involved, but I think it might be due to them fearing that the androids would be a bigger threat to humanity than the Calculator was. Hence why they headed east to Boston. And just an FYI, all the gameplay video's shown so far, we've only seen Brotherhood of Steel INITIATES. It could be possible that the initiates are given only the T-45d power armors, where as the higher ranking BOS members get the better and more advanced power armor, such as the MWBOS signature power armor.

1. and? casadin would NOT have taken over the entire BoS of DC, not in anyway, they are still very much a minority and most of them who WOULD respect Casidin also respect the Lyons family. the Outcasts are all but dead, even as teh game starts and have VERY little in the way of any real power in the wasteland.

2. cause that is where all teh muties be? maybe? by the end of Fallout 3, there really is not much that could take the BoS there down.

To be honest, the only reason why Casdin (I was spelling it wrong) couldn't remove Lyons as elder of their BOS chapter was because he was still recognized by the West Coast elder council. And from my perspective, the only reason why the rest of them didn't turn on him like the Outcasts did was also probably because he was named elder and still recognized by the council too. And to be honest, the Outcasts are searching for tech, they aren't interested in playing power games with the locals, killing raiders who cause problems, sure, but they don't really care about anything but scavenging for tech, so whose to say what kind of power they actually have.

However, the BOS is a military group, and while Casdin did abandon the CWBOS, he did so because he wanted to follow the original mission of the BOS, not Lyons mission. Which if they ever managed to contact the West Coast council, they might name Casdin as Lyons successor. And regardless of the Casdin issue, I seriously doubt that the West Coast would recognize Sarah Lyons, as even if Owyn's passed away 10 years later, she would only be 36, which to be honest, seems to be too young for someone to be named elder by the council. Of course, there's the possibility that they broke away from the West Coast Brotherhood after the events of FO3, but we won't know anything really until either Bethesda shows it in more gameplay video, or in November.

And we actually don't know how many of the Vault 87 Super Mutants survived after the CWBOS discovered that's where they come from. We know they are running really low on FEV, but the only way I see it that this is the CWBOS is if this was 10 years later. Still, it doesn't explain why the CWBOS came in such force... even if that's where the majority of the surviving mutants ran. It just seems over kill.

I don't know about that, but I'm pretty sure I can see Arthur Maxson waving from one of the windows!

Lets not forget the Lyons' Pride which is in effect a royal bodyguard, probably formed because of Casidin's rebellion to ensure there would be no palace coups....also I think your under playing the loyalty that the rank and file have already showed Lyons, he is their Elder, Sarah is their established military commander, the Head Paladin is loyal to Lyons, Lyons Pride is loyal (with 3 out of the 4 Knight Captains), the head scribe is loyal and frankly in 10 years the majority of the Knights (and Initiates) are going to be recuited locals rather than west coast BOS.

Casidin rebellion as far we know, achieved absolutely nothing beyond stealing some tech and equipment from BOS and saluaging some robots, its hard to see a victorius BOS abandoning Sarah Lyons in favour of someone who achieved nothing beyond betraying his Elder.....also he is kind of dead in most of my playthroughs.

Maxson: "cool, i can see my house from here"

Random Paladin: "but.....we are nowhere near DC"

Maxson: "stop spoiling the fun"

Perhaps we will be able to build a replica of Maxson's DC home in the wastes, using scrap. If not, I'm claiming this idea for my first mod!

It should be obvious it will be Arthur Maxson's BOS we will see in FO4. Fallout 3 hints at this. First, why even have "Arthur" Maxson in the game? He serves no purpose in FO3. I think it would be stupid if they didnt use him in the next game, especially when we know now the BOS is in FO4. Second, the poems he writes are "hooks" or hints to what we will see in Fallout 4. The "Songs of the Lightman" is clearly a reference to "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came" by Robert Browning. It is describing Arthur's four ancestors and him making "one." He travels a wasteland looking for the Dark Tower, when he finds it, he sounds the trumpets. Another reference to King Arthur. The other poem,"Guardians of Gillyfrond" speaks of Molly-Golly who is guarded by a teddy bear who has authority over other stuffed animals. "Molly" means cowardly boy. "Golly" is an old term used for a soft doll. Molly is protected by and rules over this teddy bear. King Arthur is also known as the "Bear King." So onceagain another reference and hint of Arthur Maxson. Also at the end of Broken Steel DLC, Sarah Lyons tells you, after you ask what they will do next, they will probably scavenge the Eastern seaboard.

It actually makes more sense for a weakened WCBoS to send the "expedition" than it does for a full strength over-confident one. The expedition wasn't an "expedition" at all in that case, instead it was a tactical retreat across the wastes to attempt to reconnect with the MWBoS in order to obtain reinforcements for their losing war. If contact were to fail, or their efforts to be rebuked Lyons was likely instructed to head East to the former capital as a means to protect the BoS heir Maxson. The BoS would have been aware of East Coast military bunkers, which would provide safe haven for their faction to survive if their West Coast operations were at serious risk. Self preservation would dictate a tactical retreat, not reinforcing a hopeless line.

Why not send a larger force then? Why not just be honest about their situation to an outsider? Because a proud faction would not admit to how dire their situation really is, especially to an outsider in a region that they have not pacified. You don't send a larger force because you leave a force to cover your retreat, the NCR aren't going to hunt down and annihilate a mobile BoS unit containing the leaders heir if they believe the WCBoS is settling in for a slug fest in their bunkers.

Now if you're an Elder it makes a lot more sense to tell the leader of your BoS "expedition" that their mission is for contact and technology than it does to admit how dire your situation is and risk them not following orders. Lyons discovery of Liberty Prime probably seemed like a godsend to the WCBoS, but when the war turned South in California without LP being ready it would be prudent to cut coms. WCBoS gets to "object" to Lyons recruitment, providing a message to their own people against disregarding orders while simultaneously assuring your factions existing by stranding the future leader in a far safer region.

All of that falls apart if Lyons is sent while the WCBoS are at the height of their powers. Maxson's presence also makes little sense in that scenario.

The enclave are really the shoehorned faction in Fo3.

I just hope the plot doesn't revolve around further BoS/Enclave conflicts. I want something fresh. Bethesda hasn't really regurgitated plot themes before however, so the future looks bright in that regard.

Firstly, Arthur Maxson wasn't with Lyon's when he left, the boy was sent at a later date all the way across the country, when Lyon's had already established a base in the CW, because his father died and the status of his mother, unknown after she sends him. And sending such a force like Lyon's, that far east and calling it a tactical retreat, cannot be taken seriously. It was an expedition, the BoS call it as much in the game, and poorly reasoned and written. Had the majority of the WCBoS gone east, leaving a screening force to hold up the NCR (as actual militaries are trained to do,) a tactical retreat it could be called. You don't do it in reverse, leaving the majority of your force to be punished, and a small contingent to escape. But Lyon's was not doing that to begin with. It was a poorly written and reasoned expedition East, just so Beth could shoehorn them into Fallout 3. Plain and simple.

And your whole bit about Liberty Prime and the WCBoS, goes against what is actually said in Fallout 3. Communications between the BoS in the CW and WCBoS, were cut because of Lyon's prioritizing the safety of the CW's inhabitants against raiders, Super Mutants, etc., and not focusing on getting the tech he'd gathered up, back West. Not because the war was going south for them, and they had to go quiet.

As for the Enclave, they too were shoehorned in, as well as Super Mutants, since FEV was only meant to be on the West Coast. But this isn't about them, it's about the BoS.

One thing that people need to take into account is several key timeline facts
-First off, Lyons was sent east 23 years ago.
-Secondly, Arthur Maxson was sent, as an infant, to Lyons, while Lyons was still in favor with the WCBoS.
-Thirdly, Arthur Maxson is only 10.
This means Lyons was still in favor, and in contact, with the WCBoS up until at least 10 years ago, 13 years AFTER he arrived in D.C.

We also know the Outcast faction was formed only a year ago, and its unlikely they would have stayed with Lyons for like 9 years after the WCBoS cut him off, implying it was only around a year ago that he was cut off.

The NCR-BoS war could have started in any of the 13-22 years AFTER he left the west, but before he lost favor with the WCBoS, and his comments of "The BoS struggling both here and out in the west" would still be true. However, at the time they sent him, they could have not been in the war/struggling, and he just knows they have been due to being in contact with them for those years.

Which likely explains why the WCBoS had been hounding him to capture more tech, and ignore the super mutants, they needed it for the war. But that is my head-canon.