There is nothing to DEBATE! There are no plotholes! Do you want me to write out the entire script of FO3 along with Dialogue, temrinal entries, player choices, and mechanics and the go through each one and say "this one doesnt feature a plothole"? You are the one deflecting, you have a personal gripe against a game but with no proof to back up your reasons

How is an internal struggle between traditionalists and new-age thinkers stupid? Do explain because it likely one of the most depth-possessing occurrences in the Fallout universe as it shows just how twisted up and subjective the BoS's ideals are how their members are still human no matter how much they try to shrug that off

You saying there are no plot holes, doesn't mean there aren't any. Which if you read what I have said to others on here, you would realize that I pointed out the plot holes. Instead, all you do is mimic Beth's weak and illogical story, as if it's something, and deflect in posts just like this, trying to even turn it around on me and say I'm the one deflecting, when I'm asking, and been asking this entire time, that you provide actual evidence to support your position, and to read what I said before, that likely already makes whatever weak points you can try to bring, moot.

But I can tell that whatever points you bring up, probably won't be worth anything, because you've proven again and again on here, that you can't debate, that you can't bring up points to counter someone who's position is counter to yours, when the whole time that's what they're asking you to do, not mimic a weak story, or deflect. So maybe you should just kindly step away, because you're not doing yourself any favors.

The Brotherhood has been doing the things they do for an extremely long time. It's just now an issue? I would've preferred if Bethesda just made an entirely new group to be their peacekeeping pals. Perhaps they just wanted to be able to put BoS power armor on the cover. Haha just playing though.

Speaking of the plotholes, http://i.imgur.com/C51UpQE.png image was an interesting read, even if you don't take it seriously it's worth a good chuckle at the least for the hilarious diction and tone the author used.

Edit: Please don't go through every aspect of that picture and try to debate it with me. I'm not interested. I just posted it for some fun.

It doesn't need a free pass because it's not a bad explanation. If you look at Owyn Lyon's expedition under the hood, he left the Brotherhood home base as a firm believer in their ways. His journey to the East molded him to become a more compassionate being, because he didn't have the incubation of the Lost Hills elders (indoctrination). Lyon's group didn't consist of mostly outcasts like the first expedition which ended up splintering off. They likely had a lot of resolute followers who were loyal to a fault to the LH Elder's and the original BoS mission doctrine.

So, no, it's not stupid that a bunch of these hardcoe loyalists got rustled when they found out that Lyon's was ditching the original mission parameters. They behaved as humans do when faced with betrayal. It would have been [censored] stupid if they didn't split up, and just gathered in a circle, held hands, and sang [censored] kumbaya like it's no big deal.

Warp, don't waste your time, he's a hypocrite and you're just getting baited into a flame war. He was accusing me of ad hominem earlier, then began to say I was deflecting the meat of his argument (i.e. none).

He then hits you with this doozy:

As if it has any bearing or relevance towards the discussion. That's ad hominem and he's just a pot calling the kettle black.

Yeah, id rather not go the headache route. It is easy to forget that hatred often overwrites logic, so it is with anyone who has anything nice to say about a game someone else hates

You seem to know a good deal about this, call me impressed. Here's a question I have though: If Lyons had this sudden change of heart due to the indoctrination wearing off, how come there are loyalists at all? Wouldn't they, too, become more compassionate along the way?

Especially considering how their leader was acting. I would think that example would rub off and there would be no outcasts in 3.

Not everyone reacts the same to things like religion and authority, same is to be said of duty. Not everyone in the BoS is as open to "the big picture" or even privy to it like an Elder. An Elder has to make large and calculated decisions, but without the other Elders looking over hi shoulder Lyons could no longer deny the people's needs in the wasteland. Also some people are just heartless or take an "Exitus Acta Probat" stance on all things

I actually had no idea about Owyn's background at first and I credit awesomepossum for enlightening me.

I likened Elder Lyons's situation to that of the Vault Dweller in Fallout. Both of them were raised in an insular, xenophobic, technologically advanced society, were cast out of that society on a mission to find some important tech, and found themselves alone and in control of their destiny for the first time. And like the Vault Dweller ( at least, the Vault Dweller on my saved games ), he displayed that all-too human trait of compassion and went about helping people.

I think a lot of what kept the Brotherhood how the Brotherhood was, dogmatic, secretive, and so on, was their group-imposed isolation. Once you send a contingent out into the wastes, away from that continual feedback of norms and values, people are bound to start making up their own minds about things.

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Owyn_Lyons

But, as far as the rub off effect, I'm sure it did rub off on a lot of members as Lyon's did have a lot of supporters who trusted and believed in his guidance at the end of the expedition (otherwise he would have been in dire straits). The BoS aren't a perfect group, as evidenced by FNV, and it goes to show that no matter how you run things, you're going to have individuals who feel like they can do a better job (Paladin Hardin vs Elder McNamara). In Lyon's group's case, there's bound to be people who command a level of respect and power that might disagree with the way you handle things. Take for example Caesar and Koba's relationship deterioration in Dawn of the Planet of the Apes. Two really good, trusting friends who ultimately clashed because one was stuck in his ways, and the other was willing to adapt and get along with the humans for the greater good.

Hmmm. Interesting points you two.

At the end of the day, I didn't want the brotherhood to be peacekeeping folk back in 08, and I still don't approve of it now. At least the explanation is somewhat viable, if not a little consequential.

It's not even the FO3 lore that bugged me in the first place really though,we all know WHY BoS was what it was (I have an even greater grasp on it now), it was more so the contrast of technology hoarders / peacekeepers. I wish Bethesda would have avoided a wasteland police force theme entirely.

I'm sidetracking hardcoe here, I almost feel as if FO3 can't decide if its a bleak and grim world where living is surviving or if its a Run down but functioning society.

My issue with Fo3 stems from, as you said in your last sentence, it feeling like the bombs had dropped that year of 2277. I feel it has to do with Bethesda's inexperience with the franchise.

The West Coast have long since turned their back on Lyons' BOS so that boat has come and gone......Sarah already in position to be the next Elder.

I'd call it rebellion since the Outcasts have had armed clashes with the CWBOS, so its probable that BOS members have been killed in clashes with Outcasts, nothing turns you against an old ally quicker than having him kill some of your people.

We know that even in Fallout 3, the majority of Lyons' BOS strength is locally recuited, we know that Lyons' Pride is personally loyal to the Lyons and includes the majority of the Knight Captains in their ranks.....add on more time and the percentage of locals to orginal BOS is only going to grow in Lyons' favour.

Since Lyons' BOS have had no contact with the West Coast its highly unlikely that they would accept that Casidin has and that the other BOS Chapters would even try to place a man in control of CWBOS who had broken faith with his Elder and been actively fighting BOS member since then. Lyons' BOS is already a separate faction, with now loose ties to the West Coast BOS, its highly unlikely that they would be accepting of an attempt to place Casidin in control.

Sugar Bombs and a Tesla Cannon. Sounds like a good idea for a mod!

Actually, no we don't know about the West Coast/Lyons relationship that well. We know that they've cut off sending reinforcements, but from everything that is said, the WC still recognize Lyons. We also don't know how long ago they've decided this. As for Sarah being the next elder, we have no idea how that will play out until Bethesda tells us. There could be a twist... considering BOS lore, Lyons "going native" was a twist.

Actually we don't know if they've been killing each other, because there isn't a single scripted event where Outcasts and BOS members go and try to kill each other. There are the times when an Outcast and BOS patrol meet up by chance and kill each other, but we don't know if them coming to blows is actually part of the lore, or just simply because their factions are set as hostile in the game code.

Actually... we don't know that. We know that Lyons BOS is mixed with hastily trained locals and whats left of the original expedition BOS members. We don't know which side makes up the majority, or if they are about equal. As well, from what we've heard in-game, it sounds like Lyons is having issues recruiting locally because... well over-enthusiastic people do pretty stupid things, like get themselves killed. Also, the Lyons Pride might be personally loyal to Owyn and Sarah, but that doesn't mean the rest of the remaining BOS is. As I've said, it sounds like a lot of BOS who stayed, did so because the West Coast still recognized Owyn, despite cutting off reinforcements to him. So the question that I put forward is, what happens if they decide to name Casdin as the next elder of the chapter in an attempt to gain back control?

I think the fact that Veronica from the Mojave chapter, having knowledge about the spate between Casdin and Lyons, proves you wrong about Lyons BOS or someone in the Capital Wastelands, having contact with the West Coast.

With Lyons in charge, it is a separate faction from the West Coast BOS. The thing is, we know for a fact from in-game comments from BOS members in the Citadel that some of them think that what Casdin and the Outcasts have done isn't wrong. We have to ask ourselves... how many of the BOS members still serving Lyons, think this way?

And considering the situation that the West Coast BOS is in, I don't doubt they'd try to make someone who left to follow the original mission, like Casdin, as the next chapter elder in an attempt to gain some control over this expedition back. The only question is, what would the chapter as a whole decide? I admit that it's a very very small chance that Casdin somehow gains control over Lyons BOS, but even if it's a small chance, there is still always the possibility.

We'll probably find out in FO4... if it's set 5+ years after FO3. So until then, this is merely just speculation.

We know that they have cut off all support to Lyons' Brotherhood and nobody from WCBOS is even talking to them anymore......they remain part of Brotherhood but with a totally different command and rank structure.

As for Sarah being the next Elder, she is second in command in Fallout 3 and baring Bethesda deciding to change things she would be the next Elder, frankly under those conditions anybody in the higher ranks could be the Next Elder.........and Casdin is not a essential character in Fallout 3, for at least some of us he doesn't even make it out of the last game, never mind a miraculous return to an organisation he has been in armed conflict with.

I'm sure they would like Lyons' BOS to return to the fold, but they have already recognised that they don't have the authority or ability to force Lyons' BOS from splintering away. Casdin was apparently 'stricken from the Codex', so offically he is not even a member of BOS anymore and given that all the BOS Elder's positions rest on them having complete authority over their chapters, rewarding a man who betrayed his Elder and stole tech from the Brotherhood is going to be a hard sell.

The problem with Casdin (beyond how unlikely it would be due to the lore) is he isn't an essential character, he can die by player action or be killed by NPCs. Its hard to see how someone who is just as likely to be dead at the end of Fallout 3 as alive would be Bethesda choice to lead the Brotherhood in a new twist to their story on the east coast.

You can kill Every single BoS member in FO3, not just the rank and file but Sarah and Owen and Rothchild as well

If you go out of your way to do so yes, but Casdin can die without you ever meeting him while the others are important to the story and I expect that their survival is canon while Casdins isn't.

Programming errors do not overwrite choices the player can make (which the game gives the player the opportunity to make). Casdin is in no way "intended to die" nor does the game give you any recognition or notice if he does die, whereas you can send Sarah into the Project Purity chamber to die, and call down the Mobile Base Crawler's arsenal upon the Citadel. The game recognizing these events means way more than programming malfunction

What programming errors, Casdin can be killed and your given no notice of his death because it would only effect the one unending quest to trade to tech for stuff, he is not important enough to the story to be essential or to be told that he is dead.

Sarah's (or the LWs) Death was negated by Broken Steel and yes you can nuke the Citadel but the Enclave's total defeat is still canon, so I dont expect it to be ever referenced in later games....the massacre of the majority of Lyons' BOS would probably be a big deal if it was canon.

Just to add to this:

AND it is not canon, as we have never seen Bethesda make teh slaughter everything parts canon. a mages guild quest in morrowind wants you to kill of the entire telvanni council, it is not canon, because you meet one of the councilors in Dragonborn DLC. You could wipe out the NCR in fallout 2, but nope, they are still around. the "Bad" endings for questlines are never canon. this means that we know that Casadin has no power.

they are not going to have Casadin take over and turn the DC BoS back to status quo, it simply makes ZERO sense within their storyline or canon history.

No it is not, if you send Sarah into the chamber she dies, permanently

Yeah... so can you tell me WHERE in game that you got your information that the WCBOS is not talking to them? To me, it makes no sense to "cut them off" and not talk to them at all... yet keep them within the organization? I'd imagine they'd want to hear about oh... say the Enclave; or perhaps be updated on anything new they learn about the Super Mutants; etc. etc.. No where in game does it ever state the WCBOS stopped/refuses too communicate to Lyons, just that they weren't going too reinforce them anymore.

Your idea that just because Casdin isn't an essential character somehow excludes him from anything... is your personal opinion, nothing more. Bethesda sets certain characters as being "essential" when they are either a companion, or extremely important to the main story line or a major side story in the game. Casdin wasn't, though to be honest, I think they really missed out on making an interesting side story with the PC being able to either reunite the two broken factions back into one, or 'siding' with one against the other.

Oh, and in a lot of peoples last game, they nuked the Citadel and wiped out the Brotherhood. What you and other people did in your games is not lore, not until Bethesda announces what they consider the lore to be. FYI, I'm not stating something is lore, I'm speculating to the possibilities that could happen.

Actually, it doesn't, it just states that locals are making up the bulk of initiates. Nor do we know how big Lyons BOS was prior too the schism and after it. As for the Lyons Pride, so what if they have 3 of the 4 known and named Knight Captains, that has NOTHING to do with what we're talking about.

You should study history some, personal loyalty does not always transfer down from father to child, for instance Toyotomi Hideyoshi ousted the son of Oda Nobunaga from power and took over. Also, Lyons BOS had taken huge losses after Optim... I mean Liberty Prime. And to be honest, just because they know the Super Mutants are low on FEV doesn't really mean their war with the Super Mutants is going to end any time soon, or if they'll come out in a favorable position after. Lyons "dynasty" hasn't been proven anything, and would've lost without the Lone Wonderer saving them... that's if the LW didn't blast the Citadel too pieces.

And again, from my perspective, while they respect Owyn Lyons as a leader, I always felt like it was more due to the West Coast Elders still recognizing him as the Chapter's Elder.

Because if Owyn's dies, and the WC elders want him as the new chapter elder, how many of the original BOS members will refuse? This is speculation, but it's based on the BOS codex, if the Council of Elders puts forth Casdin as the next chapter elder, I'm not sure many original BOS members would actually object to it.

As far as we know, that comment can only be taken as referring too the Capital Wastelands BOS chapter. And no, we don't know if contact with the West Coast has been cut off, please reference an in-game comment/quote from FO3 that mentions that Lyons BOS has lost communications from the WC; or that the WC is refusing to talk too Lyons.

We know that they are angry over them leaving, we don't know if they've actually broke out fighting. We also know that many of them sympathize with the Outcasts too... And considering that Bethesda hasn't laid down what is cannon from Fallout 3 yet, the Lone Wanderer could've destroyed the Citadel for all we know. Though I don't doubt that they'll choose the Adams Air Force Base/Enclave Mobile Base being destroyed, it isn't confirmed until Bethesda says.

Okay... the Council of Elders lead the BOS into a war with the NCR. A war, mind you, that for every one well trained member of the Brotherhood, there was about 1,000 NCR soldiers. I really don't think they'd have a problem with trying to put someone who would be friendly to their cause, as Lyons replacement, regardless of whether they believe they have authority to do so or not. Also, no, it's not a hard thing to sell, because Casdin left to continue the original orders, which was to find, obtain and bring back tech from the Capital Wasteland too the West Coast. They'd view Lyons as the traitor... but chances are they haven't removed/stricken Lyons from the Codex because he's on the other side of the country, and because he has Arthur Maxson under his care.

This is the weakest point of your argument. Bethesda designates certain characters "essential" because they are vital too the main storyline or important quests. So your argument that Casdin isn't essential somehow makes him less likely to be used later on if they DO bring back the CWBOS, is moot. After all, you can kill Owyn Lyons if you choose the Citadel as the target at the end of Broken Steel... which I'm sure half the players who played FO3 seriously wanted to do from the start.

As I said, it's speculation based on what I think COULD happen, and I've already stated this chance is extremely small. But if they DO bring back the CWBOS for FO4, they should be giving us closure on what happened with the Brotherhood/Outcast schism.

No with Broken Steel she is in the same room you wake up in and you can talk to her later when she recovers, at least thats what happened in my playthroughs and she is referenced as appearing in Broken Steel.

Sigh...if YOU go into the chamber she goes into a coma, if you send HER into the chamber she dies...the end

that ONLY happens if YOU or a radiotion immune companion go into the room, if she is sent into the room (or a living companion like cass is sent) they die.