So you cannot refute what I said, just deflect it to a personal attack. How about explaining why what you underlined, is wrong, instead of making worthless comments about how you can't actually refute what I said. The story is weak, it was poorly written and reasoned, and that's just the plain matter of it. Can't actually refute my point, don't comment or reply, simple.

Well obviously Bethesda went through the original games and said what factions, wildlife etc do we want in our game.......Super Mutants, the Enclave, the BOS, ghouls, deathclaws etc, etc....

Bethesda's version of BOS is I expect going to become a staple of the Bethesda Fallout east coast games.

Really? Because in Fallout 2 they were barely present in the game, as there was only one NPC that had actual dialogue and upon doing their only quest in the game they disappeared from the game world. The Brotherhood of Steel isn't as essential of a faction as people like to think just because they we're shoved down our throats in Fallout 3. A Fallout game without them is definitely possible. This whole idea that Fallout isn't Fallout without the Brotherhood is just absurd.

I'm not attacking your character, simply stating that exchanging words are a waste of time with you because you already have a predisposition of the BoS being shoehorned.

But, since you insist, shoehorning implies a character or entity being forced into a setting where they obviously should not be. This isn't the case. The BoS are an entity of Fallout, whether they were central in previous games is another discussion.

Actual shoehorning would be Jacob showing up in Fallout 4 for no other reason or explanation other than to please the fans of previous titles. OTOH, with respect to the East BoS, it's clearly explained that lore wise, the Lost Hills Elders were interested in expanding Eastward to survey the extent of the Super Mutant threat. That first expedition was a disaster and splintered off into what is now known as the Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel. The second expedition, led by Owyn Lyons, proceeded on foot (likely as a means to avoid the airship disaster) in an effort to link up with the MWBoS. That also failed, but they continued on East as per the prime directive. Fo3 tells the story of what the BoS in the East struggled with.

See, you can want to see newer factions, and that's fine. That's something that is evidently going to happen with Fo4 what with the Institute, Railroad (potentially), Commonwealth Militia, etc. Fo3 was Bethesda's foray into the Fallout universe, so I can set aside the fact that they used identifiable factions in Fo3 from which they could branch off of in future titles. I chalk it up to unfamiliarity with the IP. With that said, the BoS is an interesting faction to see because of their xenophobic nature and techno-hog mind set. With what we know, we'll be seeing a potentially more radical type of BoS chapter (rogue) that displayed Heart of Darkness level of attitudes (enslaving/ruling over the barbaric, wasteland savages) - that is if tactics lore is to be trusted. That sounds like a really dark, and interesting BoS chapter that I would love to see explored. You don't need to agree with me on that. I'm A-OK with that.

This. I never actually played the first two games admittedly but when I found out more about the BoS background, it felt odd that a faction with dwindling numbers would send some of their guys across the country when they can find some tech closer AND it seemed previous expeditions tend to not be so good. (Look at the Midwestern branch.)

Though honestly, it wasn't just the BoS that was shoehorned in Fallout 3. A lot of the things in the game were shoehorned. Especially Super Mutants and Enclave.

At least someone understands!

I don't think it's a good idea to rely on everything in the pre-Bethesda games as being canon; it seems obvious to me that when they acquired the Fallout franchise, it was for the visual aesthetic and ready-made lore. Lore which they could cherry-pick to suit themselves. Basically from now on, things are only canon if Bethesda say so, and it's quite obvious that they're not afraid to change things to suit the direction they're taking the games. I know it's difficult for die-hard fans of the older games to accept, but that's how it is; the original games are largely irrelevant now.

Personally I think that could be fine since I'm guessing Bethesda may just focus on the East coast in their games, leaving the West-Coast, and much of the lore, alone. So hopefully if they do that, it'll be minimal changes and no need to reference stuff from the older games.

Hearsay from travelers and caravaners, probably.

Same way the "Wasteland Survival Guide" got to Vegas from D.C. in just 4 years time.

And likely the same way "Tales of a Junktown Jerky Vendor" got to D.C. also.

...........that is nonsense and you know it. They have NOT ignored the lore in ANY way from the previous games. There are thousands of references to the previous games and so many story elements you have to be stupid to say they were ignored.

If it's a waste of words, then why did you just write out that whole spiel to me? You just wasted your time.

And as I said originally, in my first comment, Fallout doesn't need to always have the BoS in it, to be a Fallout game. That's what Warpsmith said, and I commented my disagreement. Insisting, as Beth has, to include them in each title, is a mistake that could have been easily avoided. And as I used for another example, to go along with the BoS, you don't need the NCR in every Fallout title, for it to be a Fallout game, and the NCR has been far more important in previous Fallout titles, than the BoS was. You can have a Fallout game, still be a Fallout game, without previous factions in it. They could have just included past species, like Deathclaws, as a tribute and link to previous titles. They didn't need to pull a faction like the BoS, across and entire country for some poorly written and reasoned story.

And Beth deliberately shoehorned in the BoS, to interest older Fallout gamers, and show that it was interconnected. Their execution of it, however, as old Fallout gamers have said on here and elsewhere, was very poorly done, and could have been done another way. The story, as I said was poorly written, reasoned and Beth should have been smarter about it. The BoS on the West Coast, before Fallout 3, was a faction high isolated, losing numbers due to their lack of inclusion of people outside their bunkers. This was reinforced in New Vegas, when we saw the WCBoS in a total nosedive. It makes absolutely no sense, for a faction in such a state of decline, to waste so much manpower on a journey bound to fail, when they themselves are faltering. No faction, even as hateful as the BoS is to Super Mutants, would have wasted such manpower, on chasing them down halfway across the country.

Had Beth actually thought the story through, and perhaps had Lyon's chapter come from an expanding/exploratory MWBoS, that would be different. Fallout 3 would be a whole different game, had Beth though for a moment, and not turned them into a White Knight faction for everyone to fall in love with, who didn't know the past history of the BoS. The MWBoS is in a much different state than the WCBoS (which is again, in a nose dive towards the hard earth.) The MWBoS has the resources and manpower, to explore and expand eastward, but the WCBoS does not. And it was a mistake for Beth to use them as Lyon's starting point.

And since Fallout 4 will have the BoS, I do hope it's including the MWBoS, so we're not stuck with Lyon's poorly written club.

Yes. There is most likely a big 'Silk Route' like trade route between East and West Coast.

Given the presence of the Legion in Arizona, New Mexico, and the lower halves of Colorado and Utah, if there is a trade route across the nation, I suspect it would
-Begin at New Reno.
-Go across highway 80 until one reaches New Canaan.
-From NC one would get back on highway 80 and go through Wyoming, which is implied to be fairly empty.
-From there one would stick on highway 80, going through Nebraska, Iowa, and into Illinois, where one would reach Chicago.
-From Chicago one would go through Cleveland Ohio.
-And from there one would reach The Pitt, and thus enter the east coast trade area.

If you did go through Legion lands, one could go from LA, through Vegas, take the long 15 into Utah, touching the Legion's northern borders, and then switch to highway 70 and go through Denver, Kansas, Missouri, Illinoius, and then Indianapolis, Columbus, and The Pitt.

but thats my headcanon.

I'm sorry, I think you may have misunderstood; I wasn't implying that I think they'll simply ignore everything, but just that they'll only select the parts that suit them. And if they want to change something they will, so long as it doesn't completely destroy those elements that they've chosen to adopt. Hence the CWBoS, East Coast Super-Mutants, BoS airships in Boston, proliferation of Vertibirds etc.

but again, that is nonsense. they have NEVER said that. They HAVE officially STATED every game in teh franchise is canon except for Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel (the third person hack and slash, not tactics, that is mostly canon)

The ONLY thing they have said they will only take parts they like is from FAllout: Tactics, and that is because it does not entirely mesh with the rest of the franchise.

Because you seem insistent on calling me out as 'attacking' your character, which is why I decided to convey my thoughts appropriately so you don't seem to think I'm 'attacking' your character. But, now it looks like you just want to say "well now why are you responding to me if it's just a waste of time," after asking me several times to explain my thoughts. Holy [censored].

The brotherhood reasoning for expanding beyond their Lost Hills bunker is extremely sound. The original directive of Lyon's BoS was to find the MWBoS, link up with them, and bring back advanced technology. Said technology would be used to turn the tide in whatever conflict they found themselves in the future. Can you imagine if Lyon's had actually stuck to the original plan and brought Liberty Prime (and blue prints of LP) to the Mojave?

The Brotherhood of Steel in the West is like an old man dying from cancer, doing anything and everything he can to hold on so that he can survive - just a bit longer. The Lost Hill's elders understood that sitting in their bunker wasn't going to stop the course the Brotherhood was set on, so they gambled on reaching outwards into the East and seeing what they could find. It failed, and FNV's brotherhood reinforced that notion. They've essentially got two splinter factions, one of which they say is "still part of the brotherhood" but refuse to lend support.

So, the explanation for them being in the East is not contrived or nonsense, so I disagree with your notion immensely. You can disagree and say that there was a better way of explaining it, but that holds true for every situation under the sun, especially when it comes to something we disagree with or don't like. The Lyon's brotherhood is NOT the same as the Lost Hill's brotherhood, evidenced by their focus on helping people instead of being a bunch of xenophobes and techno-hogs. I see that as an expansion of lore and a twist of events to show that maybe there are individuals in the Brotherhood, like Veronica, who realize hoarding technology is not the solution to survival. It would have been far less interesting if Lyon's motivations had just been in-line with the original Lost Hill's directive: Find MWBoS, get tech, get the [censored] out of dodge.

This is the Brotherhood of Steel in name only, not spirit. One can even argue that it is an entirely new faction because they've shirked the original programming. What we're witnessing is the emergence of a new superpower in the East Coast - The CWBoS. Similar to how the NCR had its humble beginnings, and the Legion began as some man's bastardization of a civilization long lost. I view it as an expansion on the lore because Bethesda wants to take them into a new direction as heavyweight contenders in the East, instead of limp hermits in the West.

If you really want to point at something as being shoehorned, look no further than the Enclave. A faction that was practically decimated, twice, suddenly becoming a wasteland contender in the East Coast. They were practically life-raft refugees.

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Owyn_Lyons

"I likened Elder Lyons's situation to that of the Vault Dweller in Fallout. Both of them were raised in an insular, xenophobic, technologically advanced society, were cast out of that society on a mission to find some important tech, and found themselves alone and in control of their destiny for the first time. And like the Vault Dweller (at least, the Vault Dweller on my saved games), he displayed that all-too human trait of compassion and went about helping people.

I think a lot of what kept the Brotherhood how the Brotherhood was, dogmatic, secretive, and so on, was their group-imposed isolation. Once you send a contingent out into the wastes, away from that continual feedback of norms and values, people are bound to start making up their own minds about things."

Basically, the exact same thing that happened to Veronica, but on a far larger scale since they got MUCH farther away from the main BoS then Veronica did.

But its ok when Obsidian does it.

Them expanding from Lost Hills, to go across the entire country, is not sound at all for a faction in their condition. It's ridiculous when you take into consideration their state of faltering and going downhill, which again, NV reinforces as being even worse than at the end of Fallout 2. Who would honestly risk going so far East, when there's no certainty to what they'll find? Not to mention the amount of resources the WCBoS would have had to give Lyon's force, it's a complete waste of manpower and resources for a faction like the WCBoS, who's struggling for recruits and workable equipment. Going to the MWBoS, making contact, that would make sense for the WCBoS to ask for assistance, by getting tech, or even manpower if they were willing to do, and send back to California. But to send a resource intensive contingent from one side of the country, to the other, by a faction who is nose diving, makes absolutely no sense. It's like the old man dying of cancer, giving up and committing suicide.

The whole premise of the story, stemmed from Beth wanting to shoehorn in a previously known faction, that they didn't take the time to consider the state they were in, with the last game, and just wanted to use to entice older Fallout gamers into looking at their version of Fallout. So instead of a thought provoking story, with reasonable facts to back it up, we got a weak and poorly reasoned story.

Hell, they could have included more from Tactics, and still gone the route of Lyon's branching off from the WCBoS xenophobia and techno-hogging, and being "White Knights", had Beth considered the MWBoS being more inclusive at the end of Tactics, and that inclusiveness influencing Lyon's who took it even further. But Beth shoehorned them in without any actual consideration for the state of the WCBoS, or the lore behind them, because someone said without the BoS, there isn't Fallout.

ya dont say...

The WCBoS didnt start suffering from major problems until they went to war the with the NCR, and no date is established for when that began.

it very well could have begun after Lyons left, at which point the WCBoS would still have been in good shape at the time when they sent Lyons out.

C'mon, the games should have their own identity, why not cutting a little more connections story-wise? I mean that's one of the most interesting things about Fallout: Out of chaos, many different orders can arise. The further background already is the same everywhere (to a degree).

The BoS wasn't in the same state of decline when they made those expeditions. http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/History_of_the_Brotherhood_of_Steel

It's evident that they were able to hold out and stop the NCR's aggressive expansion for a period of time. The first expedition that left was literally composed of members that disagreed with the Elder's at Lost Hills (the MWBoS). It was a form of exile, which greatly explains why the MWBoS are sour as [censored]. Lyons' expedition was, in some way, a manner of "extending the olive branch" to see whether they could contact the MWBoS and convince them to come back and reinforce the Brotherhood with whatever tech they found.

You keep saying this, despite it not being completely true, and somewhat subjective with respect to the narrative aspect of it. They didn't need the BoS to entice the "older" fallout crowd, whatever the [censored] that is, into playing their game. The game label itself was enough to do that. If Bethesda had been the ones to introduce factions like the Legion, we would STILL be having this discussion of shoehorning because they decided to use a familiar, ancient society faction that was an absolute powerhouse in their era. We'd see [censored] like "oh how unoriginal to use a dead and long gone society as a basis for an 'emerging' faction."

I imagine that prior to their war with the NCR, they'd have been in pretty good shape, having probably looted plenty of Enclave tech while teamed up with the NCR. I wouldn't be surprised if this had made them overconfident.

For those who've talked about the possibility of FO4 featuring Lyon's brotherhood, has there been any explanation yet of where/how they would have acquired the airship? Just kinda, off-screen shenanigans, or what?

According to Van Buren lore (take that with a grain of salt), they were on the verge of practically sending the NCR packing. It was the NCR's sheer manpower that let them overcome the BoS over time.