BTB's Game Improvements & The Raiders of the Lost Topic : III - Morrowind

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:03 am

Not that it matters particularly, but I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning on this.

My reasoning is that the best application of a paralysis immunity, IMO, is the freedom it gives you to brew a lot of different potions with cheaper ingredients and not have to worry about the negative effects (paralysis being by far the most common negative effect on ingredients in my mod). This gives a rather unique alchemy-related bonus to the Bosmer race, one that is generally associated with the alchemy skill. Argonians and Bretons, similarly, also have resistances that serve them well in the alchemy world.

This isn't to say that Altmers *aren't* generally known as alchemists, but rather their strength is known to lie mroe in their spellcasting abilities.

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:21 pm

Sounds solid to me.

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:12 pm

All righty, current status of the update: "character" and "spells" plugin changes are done. Currently working on the "alchemy" plugin, where I intend to revisit the pre-made potions once again for better balance. In particular, the current linear formulae I use do not allow for the higher-end potions to be appropriately useful for their value/rarity, and bargain/cheap potions are often a bit too useful. This will need to be rectified.

If anyone is curious, here is the update list for the "character" and "spells" plugins:

Spoiler

? Raised Argonian starting endurance value from 30 to 40, raised personality from 20 to 30, and lowered intelligence and strength from 40 to 30

? Raised Breton starting strength value from 20 to 30 and lowered willpower from 50 to 40

? Raised High Elf starting willpower value from 40 to 50 and lowered strength from 30 to 20

? Raised Imperial starting strength value from 30 to 40 and lowered endurance from 40 to 30

? Raised Khajiit starting intelligence value from 30 to 40 and lowered personality from 30 to 20

? Removed High Elf weakness to fire, frost, shock, and magicka abilities and added back resistance to common disease (75)

? Raised magnitude of Argonian swift swim ability from 20 to 25 and merged the water breathing and swift swim bonuses into one ability (Argonian Swimming) instead of having them as separate abilities.

? Removed Wood Elf resistance to common disease ability

? Removed shield effect from Breton Dragon Skin power

? Raised magnitude of absorb fatigue effect on Imperial Star of the West power from 100 to 200 (default)

? Lowered magnitude of Imperial Voice of the Emperor power from 20 to 10

? Lowered magnitude of Nord Woad power from 50 to 25 and added resist normal weapons effect (25 for 60)

? Raised duration of Wood Elf Beast Tongue power from 30 to 60

Spoiler

? Added edits to effect costs of levitate, jump, and damage fatigue (the edit to levitate is to balance its alchemy effects)

? Removed edit to effect cost of absorb fatigue (the magnitudes of the new NPC-only auto-calculated spells have been adjusted accordingly to keep the costs the same)

? Lowered effect cost of absorb health from 15.00 to 12.00 (the magnitudes of the new NPC-only auto-calculated spells have been adjusted accordingly to keep the costs the same)

? Removed spellmaking & enchanting privleges from water breathing effect and lowered the cost from 4.00 to 1.20 to balance alchemy effects

? Lowered duration of Levitate spell from 30 to 20

? Lowered duration of Strong Levitate spell from 30 to 20 and lowered cost from 18 to 9

? Lowered duration of Great Levitate spell from 30 to 20 and lowered cost from 36 to 12

? Lowered duration of Wild Levitate spell from 30 to 20 and lowered cost from 48 to 18

? Lowered cost of Strong Feather spell from 12 to 9

? Lowered cost of Great Feather spell from 24 to 12

? Lowered cost of Ulms' Juicedaw Feather spell from 36 to 18

? Lowered cost of Vivec's Kiss spell from 9 to 6

? Raised area of Burden Of Sin spell from 0 to 10 and lowered cost from 18 to 12

? Raised area of Great Burden Of Sin spell from 0 to 10, magnitude from 150-300 to 200-400, and set it to "on touch" instead of "on target"

? Raised area of Crushing Burden Of Sin spell from 0 to 25, magnitude from 250-500 to 300-600, and set it to "on touch" instead of "on target"

? Raised magnitude of Clumsiness and Clumsy touch spells from 5-15 to 10-20

? Raised magnitude of Wild Clumsiness spell from 10-30 to 20-40

? Raised magnitude of Fleabite spell from 40-60 to 40-80

? Raised magnitude of Doze spell from 80-120 to 80-160 and lowered cost from 12 to 9

? Raised magnitude of Hornhand spell from 120-180 to 120-240 and lowered cost from 24 to 18

? Raised magnitude of Ironhand spell from 160-240 to 160-320. and lowered cost from 36 to 30

? Raised magnitude of Heartbite spell from 30 to 100, raised cost from 9 to 36, and set it to "on touch" instead of "on target"

? Raised magnitude of Daedric Bite spell from 50 to 200 and raised cost from 18 to 72

? Raised cost of Wounding Touch spell from 5 to 6

? Raised cost of Wound spell from 5 to 9 and raised magnitude from 10-25 to 20-30

? Raised cost of Weeping Wound spell from 15 to 18

? Lowered cost of Wild Weeping Wound spell from 30 to 24 and lowered from 80-120 to 60-90

? Lowered duration of Drain Blood spell from 30 to 20 and raised area from 0 to 10

? Lowered duration of Sphere of Negation spell from 30 to 20 and raised area from 20 to 25

? Lowered magnitude of Wearying Touch spell from 120-200 to 100-200, lowered duration from 30 to 10, and lowered cost from 12 to 6

? Lowered magnitude of Exhausting Touch spell from 200-360 to 200-300, lowered duration from 30 to 10, and lowered cost from 30 to 18

? Lowered magnitude of Weariness spell from 120-200 to 100-200, lowered duration from 30 to 20, lowered cost from 18 to 12, and raised area from 0 to 10

? Lowered magnitude of Exhaustion spell from 200-360 to 200-300, lowered duration from 30 to 10, lowered cost from 45 to 36, and raised area from 0 to 10

? Lowered magnitude of Wild Exhaustion spell from 200-600 to 300-400, lowered duration from 30 to 10, , and raised area from 0 to 10

? Raised magnitude of Ordeal Of St. Olms spell from 200-360 to 300-400, lowered duration from 60 to 10, lowered area from 5 to 0, and lowered cost from 42 to 30

? Raised magnitude of Sleep spell from 120-200 to 1000, lowered duration from 60 to 10, lowered area from 5 to 0, raised cost from 36 to 45, and set to "on touch" instead of "on target"

? Changed effects Weary, Cruel Weary, and Dire Weary spells from burden to drain fatigue (magnitudes, durations, costs, and areas have all been adjusted accordingly)

? Raised area of Viperbolt spell from 0 to 5

? Raised area of God's Spark spell from 20 to 25

? Lowered magnitude of Dire Noise spell from 50-80 to 50-60 and lowered cost from 36 to 30

? Lowered cost of Cruel Earwing spell from 30 to 24

? Lowered cost of Dire Earwing spell from 48 to 42

? Changed magnitude of Wild Earwig spell from 60-100 to 70-90

? Fixed error where Absorb Fatigue and Absorb Health spell costs were incorrectly set to 6 instead of 5

? Fixed error where Absorb Fatigue [Ranged] and Absorb Health [Ranged] spell costs were incorrectly set to 18 instead of 15

? Raised duration of Absorb Fatigue spell from 1 to 10 and lowered magnitude from 100 to 10

? Raised duration of Absorb Fatigue [Ranged] spell from 1 to 20 and lowered magnitude from 100 to 10

? Raised duration of Energy Leech spell from 20 to 30

? Raised magnitude of Righteousness spell from 40 to 50-100

? Lowered duration of Tap Energy spell from 40 to 20, raised magnitude from 5 to 10-20, lowered cost from 60 to 30 (and removed auto-calculation), and added it to Elynu Saren at Suran (who now sells it)

? Changed magnitude of Life Force spell from 80-120 to 75-125, lowered cost from 60 to 45 (and removed auto-calculation), and added it to Aunius Autrus at Wolverine Hall (who now sells it)

? Added two new NPC-only auto-calculated spells to fill the gaps left by Tap Energy and Life Force

? Lowered cost of Absorb Magicka spell from 12 to 5 and lowered magnitude from 25 to 10

? Lowered cost of Absorb Magicka [Ranged] spell from 36 to 30

? Raised cost of Self Dispel spell from 3 to 6.

? Lowered magnitude of Variable Resist Fire/Frost/Shock/Poison/Magicka spells from 10-30 to 10-20 and lowered cost from 18 to 15

? Raised magnitude of Balyna's Antidote and Zenthiar's Gospel spells from 40-60 to 60

? Raised magnitude of Panacea spell from 60-140 to 120

? Raised magnitude of Rilms' Cure and Rilms' Gift spells from 120-180 to 180

? Raised magnitude of Vivec's Tears spell from 160-240 to 240

? Lowered magnitude of Hearth Heal spell from 50 to 30 and lowered cost from 15 to 6

? Lowered duration of Veloth's Gift spell from 5 to 3 and lowered cost from 15 to 6

? Raised duration of Veloth's Benison spell from 3 to 5 and raised cost from 6 to 12

? Raised magnitude of Heal Companion spell from 30 to 90 and raised cost from 6 to 24

? Raised magnitude of Strong Heal Companion spell from 80 to 120 and raised cost from 18 to 30

? Raised magnitude of Great Heal Companion spell from 120 to 240 and raised cost from 30 to 60

? Raised magnitude of Balyna's Soothing Balm spell from 40-80 to 60-80 and raised cost from 15 to 18

? Raised cost of Troll's Blood spell from 9 to 12

? Raised cost of Regenerate spell from 18 to 24 and changed magnitude from 1-5 to 2-4

? Lowered cost of Rapid Regenerate spell from 45 to 42 and lowered magnitude from 5-10 to 4-6

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:23 pm

All righty, current status of the update: "character" and "spells" plugin changes are done. Currently working on the "alchemy" plugin, where I intend to revisit the pre-made potions once again for better balance. In particular, the current linear formulae I use do not allow for the higher-end potions to be appropriately useful for their value/rarity, and bargain/cheap potions are often a bit too useful. This will need to be rectified.

If anyone is curious, here is the update list for the "character" and "spells" plugins:

Spoiler

? Raised Argonian starting endurance value from 30 to 40, raised personality from 20 to 30, and lowered intelligence and strength from 40 to 30

? Raised Breton starting strength value from 20 to 30 and lowered willpower from 50 to 40

? Raised High Elf starting willpower value from 40 to 50 and lowered strength from 30 to 20

? Raised Imperial starting strength value from 30 to 40 and lowered endurance from 40 to 30

? Raised Khajiit starting intelligence value from 30 to 40 and lowered personality from 30 to 20

? Removed High Elf weakness to fire, frost, shock, and magicka abilities and added back resistance to common disease (75)

? Raised magnitude of Argonian swift swim ability from 20 to 25 and merged the water breathing and swift swim bonuses into one ability (Argonian Swimming) instead of having them as separate abilities.

? Removed Wood Elf resistance to common disease ability

? Removed shield effect from Breton Dragon Skin power

? Raised magnitude of absorb fatigue effect on Imperial Star of the West power from 100 to 200 (default)

? Lowered magnitude of Imperial Voice of the Emperor power from 20 to 10

? Lowered magnitude of Nord Woad power from 50 to 25 and added resist normal weapons effect (25 for 60)

? Raised duration of Wood Elf Beast Tongue power from 30 to 60

Spoiler

? Added edits to effect costs of levitate, jump, and damage fatigue (the edit to levitate is to balance its alchemy effects)

? Removed edit to effect cost of absorb fatigue (the magnitudes of the new NPC-only auto-calculated spells have been adjusted accordingly to keep the costs the same)

? Lowered effect cost of absorb health from 15.00 to 12.00 (the magnitudes of the new NPC-only auto-calculated spells have been adjusted accordingly to keep the costs the same)

? Removed spellmaking & enchanting privleges from water breathing effect and lowered the cost from 4.00 to 1.20 to balance alchemy effects

? Lowered duration of Levitate spell from 30 to 20

? Lowered duration of Strong Levitate spell from 30 to 20 and lowered cost from 18 to 9

? Lowered duration of Great Levitate spell from 30 to 20 and lowered cost from 36 to 12

? Lowered duration of Wild Levitate spell from 30 to 20 and lowered cost from 48 to 18

? Lowered cost of Strong Feather spell from 12 to 9

? Lowered cost of Great Feather spell from 24 to 12

? Lowered cost of Ulms' Juicedaw Feather spell from 36 to 18

? Lowered cost of Vivec's Kiss spell from 9 to 6

? Raised area of Burden Of Sin spell from 0 to 10 and lowered cost from 18 to 12

? Raised area of Great Burden Of Sin spell from 0 to 10, magnitude from 150-300 to 200-400, and set it to "on touch" instead of "on target"

? Raised area of Crushing Burden Of Sin spell from 0 to 25, magnitude from 250-500 to 300-600, and set it to "on touch" instead of "on target"

? Raised magnitude of Clumsiness and Clumsy touch spells from 5-15 to 10-20

? Raised magnitude of Wild Clumsiness spell from 10-30 to 20-40

? Raised magnitude of Fleabite spell from 40-60 to 40-80

? Raised magnitude of Doze spell from 80-120 to 80-160 and lowered cost from 12 to 9

? Raised magnitude of Hornhand spell from 120-180 to 120-240 and lowered cost from 24 to 18

? Raised magnitude of Ironhand spell from 160-240 to 160-320. and lowered cost from 36 to 30

? Raised magnitude of Heartbite spell from 30 to 100, raised cost from 9 to 36, and set it to "on touch" instead of "on target"

? Raised magnitude of Daedric Bite spell from 50 to 200 and raised cost from 18 to 72

? Raised cost of Wounding Touch spell from 5 to 6

? Raised cost of Wound spell from 5 to 9 and raised magnitude from 10-25 to 20-30

? Raised cost of Weeping Wound spell from 15 to 18

? Lowered cost of Wild Weeping Wound spell from 30 to 24 and lowered from 80-120 to 60-90

? Lowered duration of Drain Blood spell from 30 to 20 and raised area from 0 to 10

? Lowered duration of Sphere of Negation spell from 30 to 20 and raised area from 20 to 25

? Lowered magnitude of Wearying Touch spell from 120-200 to 100-200, lowered duration from 30 to 10, and lowered cost from 12 to 6

? Lowered magnitude of Exhausting Touch spell from 200-360 to 200-300, lowered duration from 30 to 10, and lowered cost from 30 to 18

? Lowered magnitude of Weariness spell from 120-200 to 100-200, lowered duration from 30 to 20, lowered cost from 18 to 12, and raised area from 0 to 10

? Lowered magnitude of Exhaustion spell from 200-360 to 200-300, lowered duration from 30 to 10, lowered cost from 45 to 36, and raised area from 0 to 10

? Lowered magnitude of Wild Exhaustion spell from 200-600 to 300-400, lowered duration from 30 to 10, , and raised area from 0 to 10

? Raised magnitude of Ordeal Of St. Olms spell from 200-360 to 300-400, lowered duration from 60 to 10, lowered area from 5 to 0, and lowered cost from 42 to 30

? Raised magnitude of Sleep spell from 120-200 to 1000, lowered duration from 60 to 10, lowered area from 5 to 0, raised cost from 36 to 45, and set to "on touch" instead of "on target"

? Changed effects Weary, Cruel Weary, and Dire Weary spells from burden to drain fatigue (magnitudes, durations, costs, and areas have all been adjusted accordingly)

? Raised area of Viperbolt spell from 0 to 5

? Raised area of God's Spark spell from 20 to 25

? Lowered magnitude of Dire Noise spell from 50-80 to 50-60 and lowered cost from 36 to 30

? Lowered cost of Cruel Earwing spell from 30 to 24

? Lowered cost of Dire Earwing spell from 48 to 42

? Changed magnitude of Wild Earwig spell from 60-100 to 70-90

? Fixed error where Absorb Fatigue and Absorb Health spell costs were incorrectly set to 6 instead of 5

? Fixed error where Absorb Fatigue [Ranged] and Absorb Health [Ranged] spell costs were incorrectly set to 18 instead of 15

? Raised duration of Absorb Fatigue spell from 1 to 10 and lowered magnitude from 100 to 10

? Raised duration of Absorb Fatigue [Ranged] spell from 1 to 20 and lowered magnitude from 100 to 10

? Raised duration of Energy Leech spell from 20 to 30

? Raised magnitude of Righteousness spell from 40 to 50-100

? Lowered duration of Tap Energy spell from 40 to 20, raised magnitude from 5 to 10-20, lowered cost from 60 to 30 (and removed auto-calculation), and added it to Elynu Saren at Suran (who now sells it)

? Changed magnitude of Life Force spell from 80-120 to 75-125, lowered cost from 60 to 45 (and removed auto-calculation), and added it to Aunius Autrus at Wolverine Hall (who now sells it)

? Added two new NPC-only auto-calculated spells to fill the gaps left by Tap Energy and Life Force

? Lowered cost of Absorb Magicka spell from 12 to 5 and lowered magnitude from 25 to 10

? Lowered cost of Absorb Magicka [Ranged] spell from 36 to 30

? Raised cost of Self Dispel spell from 3 to 6.

? Lowered magnitude of Variable Resist Fire/Frost/Shock/Poison/Magicka spells from 10-30 to 10-20 and lowered cost from 18 to 15

? Raised magnitude of Balyna's Antidote and Zenthiar's Gospel spells from 40-60 to 60

? Raised magnitude of Panacea spell from 60-140 to 120

? Raised magnitude of Rilms' Cure and Rilms' Gift spells from 120-180 to 180

? Raised magnitude of Vivec's Tears spell from 160-240 to 240

? Lowered magnitude of Hearth Heal spell from 50 to 30 and lowered cost from 15 to 6

? Lowered duration of Veloth's Gift spell from 5 to 3 and lowered cost from 15 to 6

? Raised duration of Veloth's Benison spell from 3 to 5 and raised cost from 6 to 12

? Raised magnitude of Heal Companion spell from 30 to 90 and raised cost from 6 to 24

? Raised magnitude of Strong Heal Companion spell from 80 to 120 and raised cost from 18 to 30

? Raised magnitude of Great Heal Companion spell from 120 to 240 and raised cost from 30 to 60

? Raised magnitude of Balyna's Soothing Balm spell from 40-80 to 60-80 and raised cost from 15 to 18

? Raised cost of Troll's Blood spell from 9 to 12

? Raised cost of Regenerate spell from 18 to 24 and changed magnitude from 1-5 to 2-4

? Lowered cost of Rapid Regenerate spell from 45 to 42 and lowered magnitude from 5-10 to 4-6

What effect would those changes to the character plugin have on existing characters? I'm playing an Argonian right now. Will I need to use the console to give myself the new ability or what?

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:24 pm

What effect would those changes to the character plugin have on existing characters? I'm playing an Argonian right now. Will I need to use the console to give myself the new ability or what?

When in doubt, Wrye Mash.

I'm really not sure, though, since I don't think I've ever tried to apply a mod to an existing game before.

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:02 am

When in doubt, Wrye Mash.

I'm really not sure, though, since I don't think I've ever tried to apply a mod to an existing game before.

Well if you're changing the IDs of what abilities are added to Argonians, you're going to need to somehow remove the old (if they weren't deleted) and add in the new ability. I assume stuff in the race definition is only applied on character creation, so I doubt things like stats or abilities will change automatically.

I don't know what Wrye Mash can do in relation to this. But assuming this isn't automatic, you'll either need to make a script to apply changes to existing characters or list some console commands for people to use.

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:47 pm

Well if you're changing the IDs of what abilities are added to Argonians, you're going to need to somehow remove the old (if they weren't deleted) and add in the new ability. I assume stuff in the race definition is only applied on character creation, so I doubt things like stats or abilities will change automatically.

I don't know what Wrye Mash can do in relation to this. But assuming this isn't automatic, you'll either need to make a script to apply changes to existing characters or list some console commands for people to use.

As far as I'm aware, Wrye Mash is pretty much the ultimate one-stop fix-all for mod update issues. But again, I'm a bad person to ask.

Anyway, I'm almost done with the "Alchemy" plugin - I've pretty much restructured the effectiveness of every pre-made potion in the game (again), taking into account the two things I did not the first time: stackability and the exponentially higher values of the higher-end potions.

That being said, I've discovered a few more things I need to go back to the "Spells" plugin and do, too, including making the resist disease spells a bit cheaper to be worth their while.

BTB out

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:48 am

As far as I'm aware, Wrye Mash is pretty much the ultimate one-stop fix-all for mod update issues. But again, I'm a bad person to ask.

I think you're misunderstanding the problem. The race record has a list of abilities that should be added to that race upon character creation. As far as I know that is the only time it is checked is during character creation. Even if you change this list, I doubt any new ones will be added to the existing player when his/her game loads. And even if they were, how would it know which abilities should be removed since that information is no longer available since the record has changed?

I think you should simply update the existing abilities rather than trying to add new ones or merge them, that is the safest bet. If you can't do that then you'll probably need to make a script.

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:13 pm

I think you should simply update the existing abilities rather than trying to add new ones or merge them, that is the safest bet. If you can't do that then you'll probably need to make a script.

If updating your savegame with Wrye Mash isn't enough, you can call the chargen menu by console. Or just do like me and only apply the mod update when you're about to start a new game. Any solution is better than cutting changes or adding a script that can easily be replaced by updating properly.

P.S: My post may sound harsh, but be assured that it's not intended that way.

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:31 am

If updating your savegame with Wrye Mash isn't enough, you can call the chargen menu by console. Or just do like me and only apply the mod update when you're about to start a new game. Any solution is better than cutting changes or adding a script that can easily be replaced by updating properly.

P.S: My post may sound harsh, but be assured that it's not intended that way.

Using the chargen menu can be dangerous and cause things to mess up. I used it to make some last minute fixes at level one and had my non-default spells vanish.

Cutting changes is unnecessary, and a simple script might be the only way to have the old spells removed and the new ones added without going through chargen again. Waiting to start a new game for the new changes is out of the question. If you want to "update properly" you should be using a script.

Of course, if you don't want to provide a script then simply provide IDs for the spells that should be removed and added using console commands.

Edit:

Those stats look ahead of the curve to me. I had stats only a little better, at level 49. IMO, +3 is plenty, no matter what mods you're using.

Okay, I recalculated my stats for +3 minimum and added +4s and +5s where I trained for them. And for level 29 I have: Str 54, Int 97, Wil 101, Agi 79, Spd 52, End 64, Per 48, Luc 48.

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:51 am

Using the chargen menu can be dangerous and cause things to mess up. I used it to make some last minute fixes at level one and had my non-default spells vanish.

Cutting changes is unnecessary, and a simple script might be the only way to have the old spells removed and the new ones added without going through chargen again. Waiting to start a new game for the new changes is out of the question. If you want to "update properly" you should be using a script.

Of course, if you don't want to provide a script then simply provide IDs for the spells that should be removed and added using console commands.

I'm not quite sure it really even matters, to be honest. It's not like I'm changing the Argonian ability... I'm just consolidating them from two into one.

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:02 am

I'm not quite sure it really even matters, to be honest. It's not like I'm changing the Argonian ability... I'm just consolidating them from two into one.

If you're changing one of the existing abilities that the player already has then that action won't be problematic. If you're adding a new ability, then it needs to be added to the player and the old ones removed from the player. Even if you're just consolidating two into one of the existing abilities, the second one that is no longer needed still needs to be removed from the player.

I suggest you simply test this and see for yourself. Make an Argonian with the separate old abilities, then save, make changes, and go back in game. I suspect you'll still have the two old ones since chargen is done with.

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:52 am

If you're changing one of the existing abilities that the player already has then that action won't be problematic. If you're adding a new ability, then it needs to be added to the player and the old ones removed from the player. Even if you're just consolidating two into one of the existing abilities, the second one that is no longer needed still needs to be removed from the player.

I suggest you simply test this and see for yourself. Make an Argonian with the separate old abilities, then save, make changes, and go back in game. I suspect you'll still have the two old ones since chargen is done with.

Oh, I don't doubt you're right. But then again, I don't think two concurrent permanent water breathing abilities will really have any kind of a detrimental effect (or at least a non-cosmetic one).

EDIT: I also realized that I really haven't updated the mod or the readme since the Morrowind Code Patch fixed a couple of exploits (namely, the ones pertaining to drain intelligence and drain skill), so there's a bit more work for me.

I'm currently done with the "Alchemy" plugin, and I'm revisiting the "Spells" plugin before moving onto the "Settings" plugin (which sohuld hopefully be a short stop) and finally the "Equipment" plugin.

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:50 pm

Oh, I don't doubt you're right. But then again, I don't think two concurrent permanent water breathing abilities will really have any kind of a detrimental effect (or at least a non-cosmetic one).

I don't think so either, but the programmer in me thinks that is sloppy. :user:

At least note the name of the old ability that needs to be removed.

EDIT: I also realized that I really haven't updated the mod or the readme since the Morrowind Code Patch fixed a couple of exploits (namely, the ones pertaining to drain intelligence and drain skill), so there's a bit more work for me.

I'm currently done with the "Alchemy" plugin, and I'm revisiting the "Spells" plugin before moving onto the "Settings" plugin (which sohuld hopefully be a short stop) and finally the "Equipment" plugin.

Cool, how soon do you think until you're done?

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:04 pm

I don't think so either, but the programmer in me thinks that is sloppy. :user:

At least note the name of the old ability that needs to be removed.

It's sloppy either way, to be honest. I either have to stick in a script that serves almost no purpose or live with what I'm hoping is a generally-accepted fact about updating plugins in an existing game.

Personally, I blame Bethesda for not making a better product to begin with.

Cool, how soon do you think until you're done?

Luckily, I'm working overnigths this week, which gives me plenty of spare time to work on it. I'm really wanting to have it done by the time I get off for the week, which is Thursday morning.

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:04 pm

And I'm done with the "Settings" plugin, which was mostly just adjusting the skill progression rates to slow down the growth of combat skills, since it still seems that they level too fast. Here's what we've got:

? Raised fElementalShieldMult GMST from 0.5 to 1.0

? Raised experience gain to Alchemy skill per consume ingredient from 0.60 to 0.75

? Raised experience gain to Armorer skill per successful repair from 0.60 to 0.75

? Lowered experience gain to Hand To Hand skill per attack from 0.60 to 0.25

? Lowered experience gain to Short Blade skill per attack from 0.60 to 0.25

? Lowered experience gain to Axe skill per attack from 1.00 to 0.50

? Lowered experience gain to Blunt Weapon skill per attack from 0.80 to 0.50

? Lowered experience gain to Long Blade skill per attack from 0.80 to 0.50

? Lowered experience gain to Marksman skill per attack from 1.20 to 0.50

? Lowered experience gain to Spear skill per attack from 0.80 to 0.50

? Lowered experience gain to Heavy Armor skill per hit from 0.80 to 0.50

? Lowered experience gain to Medium Armor skill per hit from 0.80 to 0.50

? Lowered experience gain to Light Armor skill per hit from 0.80 to 0.50

? Lowered experience gain to Unarmored skill per hit from 0.80 to 0.50

I've also just finished up a bit of rewriting to the readme, which is important as always. Now, I'm off to re-address the "Spells" plugin before moving on to the imposing beast that is the "Equipment" plugin.

Have I mentioned that I really, really hate editing the "Equipment" plugin?

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:39 pm

And I'm done with the "Settings" plugin, which was mostly just adjusting the skill progression rates to slow down the growth of combat skills, since it still seems that they level too fast. Here's what we've got:

...

I've also just finished up a bit of rewriting to the readme, which is important as always. Now, I'm off to re-address the "Spells" plugin before moving on to the imposing beast that is the "Equipment" plugin.

Have I mentioned that I really, really hate editing the "Equipment" plugin?

Why do you think they level too fast? I've certainly never gotten that impression even though I only use a few of those skills. I guess I'll be making a plugin to reset those to normal. Marksman was already irritating enough to level with considering how many times I missed at low level. Marksman had the higher multiplier for experience because each hit does more damage at least compared to something like short blade.

Also, I'm glad you raised the fElementalShieldMult, I didn't even know it was as high as 0.5, or I might have been using those spells more often.

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:16 pm

Impressive work BTB. I'm following all changes and I generally agree with your choices.

Why do you think they level too fast? I've certainly never gotten that impression even though I only use a few of those skills.

Compared to most other skills, they do level fast.

Marksman was already irritating enough to level with considering how many times I missed at low level.

I agree Marksman gain shouldn't be that low as, compared to close combat weapons:
- It has a very low attack speed rate
- It's easier to miss the target as you have to take into account the distance and arrow curve trajectory.
I think it levels approx. half the speed of other weapons and so should get approx. twice their gain (with the new values: 2 * 0.50 = 1.0)

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:06 pm

By the way, I noticed that the top level elemental shield spells were added to Ervona Barys, who, according to the wiki, only allows you to buy spells if you're a Champion in the Imperial Legion. Why is this?

Trying to make the same spell myself would cost much more magicka, so I'm not pleased about that arrangement.

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:16 pm

I think Marksman can afford to level slow because often is the case if you position yourself right you can fire off enough shots to kill an enemy before they get to you. There isn't as much danger as with melee combat. Also, in general, you don't need to move as much distance to attack so you can cover half the ground but hit just as many enemies as with an axe for example. You can just stride through the forest shooting at everything. Misses aren't a HUGE problem unless you don't manage fatigue well or simply don't have a certain minimum level in Marksman.

On the subject of Elemental Shields, are the resist spells still balanced in proportion?

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:05 pm

I think Marksman can afford to level slow because often is the case if you position yourself right you can fire off enough shots to kill an enemy before they get to you. There isn't as much danger as with melee combat. Also, in general, you don't need to move as much distance to attack so you can cover half the ground but hit just as many enemies as with an axe for example. You can just stride through the forest shooting at everything. Misses aren't a HUGE problem unless you don't manage fatigue well or simply don't have a certain minimum level in Marksman.

Yet there are plenty of enemies that will throw spells at you even if you're at range, and plenty of instances where you're using Marksman while you're closer than you should be. Trying to say that the dangerousness of using the weapon should factor in to the experience rate seems arbitrary.

Just because you can stride through the forest shooting at everything doesn't mean that such behavior should be considered when balancing the experience rate. You're kind of implying that just striding through the forest shooting at everything is a bad thing somehow, yet this would just encourage more of that. Anyhow, weapons that hit slower but do more damage per hit should gain more experience per hit than faster weapons. I don't think that idea should be discarded when it comes to Marksman.

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:52 am

Why do you think they level too fast? I've certainly never gotten that impression even though I only use a few of those skills. I guess I'll be making a plugin to reset those to normal.

Compared to the other skills, combat skills *do* raise too quickly. Count how many times you hit someone or get hit during a typical dungeon crawl and compare it to how many potions you brew, how many spells you cast, or how many locks you pick.

IIRC, you're using the alternate version of my "Settings" plugin, so I understand that this may be more of a nonissue for you. Though, personally, I found this problem to be even *worse* before I restricted growth through use to just your majors and minors.

Marksman was already irritating enough to level with considering how many times I missed at low level. Marksman had the higher multiplier for experience because each hit does more damage at least compared to something like short blade.

I actually thought this, too, which is why marksman was originally the one combat skill whose growth rate I *increased*. But after playing a character with both axe and marksman as major skills, I see that the latter is tending to level up much faster as a result, even taking my combat specialization into account.

It's also really hard to take average damage output of the weapon into question when setting these rates because of the large variety of different weapons for each type. My axe skill levels slow, for example, because of my use of two-handed axes that tend to one-shot most enemies. But the same could also be said of warhammers. The only two weapon skills that seem to specifically demand different rates are short blade and hand to hand, because both do far less damage across the board.

Also, I'm glad you raised the fElementalShieldMult, I didn't even know it was as high as 0.5, or I might have been using those spells more often.

Yeah, I'm beginning to wonder if this wasn't what the developers had originally intended to set that value to.

Impressive work BTB. I'm following all changes and I generally agree with your choices.

Hey, look, it's my favorite fan.

I'm still using that list of alchemy effects for grandmaster equipment you posted way back when as a reference for my changes. In fact, I was wondering if you might try out a few more settings if you're not too busy.

In this update, I'm looking to adjust the effect costs of jump, levitate, slowfall, water breathing, and water walking for alchemy balance. I have some values in mind, but I'm not sure about them yet.

Jump - 2.00 (possibly too high?)
Levitate - 2.00 (I'm pretty confident on this one)
Slowfall - 1.00 (I'm concerned with duration, as magnitude is meaningless, so this may still be too high)
Water Breathing/Walking - 1.00 (I'm quite curious to see how these will differ from slowfall)

I agree Marksman gain shouldn't be that low as, compared to close combat weapons:
- It has a very low attack speed rate
- It's easier to miss the target as you have to take into account the distance and arrow curve trajectory.
I think it levels approx. half the speed of other weapons and so should get approx. twice their gain (with the new values: 2 * 0.50 = 1.0)

I may meet y'all halfway and set the growth rate up to 0.75, but I'll have to think about it. Consider the point I made above about how my marksman skill grows faster than my axe skill, and that's with marksman at a rate of 1.20 and axe at 1.00, which is only a 20% difference as opposed to a 50% difference.

By the way, I noticed that the top level elemental shield spells were added to Ervona Barys, who, according to the wiki, only allows you to buy spells if you're a Champion in the Imperial Legion. Why is this?

There's no rhyme or reason to it. The only criteria I used to pick the random NPCs that I added spells to were that they did not provide any unique information or quests and that they already sold a spell or spells that were at least somewhat related to the ones I was adding to them.

If this is an issue, I suppose I could look around and try to find someone else.

I think Marksman can afford to level slow because often is the case if you position yourself right you can fire off enough shots to kill an enemy before they get to you. There isn't as much danger as with melee combat. Also, in general, you don't need to move as much distance to attack so you can cover half the ground but hit just as many enemies as with an axe for example. You can just stride through the forest shooting at everything. Misses aren't a HUGE problem unless you don't manage fatigue well or simply don't have a certain minimum level in Marksman.

I think this accurately states a lot of my thoughts on the marksman skill quite well. It may be a bigger pain in the ass to level up, but my experience with it is that it's a lot safer bet than melee weapons... which is why I tend to use it more, which is probably why it levels up so damn fast.

On the subject of Elemental Shields, are the resist spells still balanced in proportion?

Yes. Elemental shield base cost is 1.00 versus 0.80 for resist elements. Had both effects belonged to the same school of magicka, the difference would need to be much greater, but this is sufficient for two effects from different schools.

Just because you can stride through the forest shooting at everything doesn't mean that such behavior should be considered when balancing the experience rate. You're kind of implying that just striding through the forest shooting at everything is a bad thing somehow, yet this would just encourage more of that. Anyhow, weapons that hit slower but do more damage per hit should gain more experience per hit than faster weapons. I don't think that idea should be discarded when it comes to Marksman.

I don't think we're trying to imply that relying on Marksman as a primary weapon skill is a bad thing, even though we tend to automatically think of it as a secondary one. Hell, if you're a Wood Elf, using a bow and arrow is probably your one hope for survival.

But anyhoo, y'all have given me a lot to digest. I'll think this over a nice hot cup of coffee and a Swedish redhead and get back with you with an answer.

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:09 pm

There's no rhyme or reason to it. The only criteria I used to pick the random NPCs that I added spells to were that they did not provide any unique information or quests and that they already sold a spell or spells that were at least somewhat related to the ones I was adding to them.

If this is an issue, I suppose I could look around and try to find someone else.

I would simply suggest adding those spells to Ulmiso Maloren in Ghostgate, Tower of Dawn Lower Level. She is the other person that sells all of the strong elemental shield spells, while not limiting sales to a specific faction. I think that is the best course of action now that you're improving the usefulness of elemental shields.

I used this page for reference: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Alteration_Spells#Lightning_Shield

Also, the Daedric Bite spell is only available from Uvele Berendas (at Indarys Manor) who only sells to House Redoran people. So I suggest you add that spell to another non-discriminatory person too.

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:36 am

I would simply suggest adding those spells to Ulmiso Maloren in Ghostgate, Tower of Dawn Lower Level. She is the other person that sells all of the strong elemental shield spells, while not limiting sales to a specific faction. I think that is the best course of action now that you're improving the usefulness of elemental shields.

I used this page for reference: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Alteration_Spells#Lightning_Shield

Yeah, that's what I used.

I suppose I could do that, though I'll probably shuffle off her new spells to someone else. The current count of new spell merchants is 16, and I want to keep that number high (since these are also restocking soul gem merchants, plus I'm trying to keep them spread out).

Also, the Daedric Bite spell is only available from Uvele Berendas (at Indarys Manor) who only sells to House Redoran people. So I suggest you add that spell to another non-discriminatory person too.

This shall be done.

Any other spells with this problem?

» Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:59 am

Any other spells with this problem?

None that I have encountered (or remembered).