So far everything seems to work fine. My hp's are fairly low though (38 with a level 6 high elven mage, 25 points in unarmored) so most creatures can oneshot me (the game feels quite difficult, maybe I should train some light armor for hp and endurance).
I had a look into the GCD spreadsheets and one (stat calculator) says something about problems if another mod touches "skill factor modifiers". I dunno what that is, but it probably has something to do with the way skills influence attributes. Did you make changes at that point? Sometimes I have the feeling that some misc skills have a very low influence on attributes (22 skill gain in med armor just got me 1 endurance), dunno if it's intentional or maybe is altered through skill factor modifiers.

[edit]Hmm... just had a little search in the readme of changes, you did indeed change the skill modifier settings, I would be curious how it influences GCD in detail. In this setting raising attributes only related to misc skills seems a little too hard. Is there a way of fixing it in my current game?

[edit2]Just took the time to calculate my stats in the stat calculator spreadsheet that comes with GCD 1.07c. There are some constants tweaked since then, but basically my values seem to be estimated.
I will just try to edit the base health constant and recalculate my stats.
Another thing I missed: The +20 intelligence by Fey are recalculated to +12 by GCD.

I've just spent a couple of hours playing BTB 5.4 (all original plugins), and excluding GCD.

I really like the way the "no misc skill growth" forced me to select as major/minor skills all skills I was actually planing to use: usually, I select skills like mercantile or acrobatics as misc skills as I know I'll still be able to boost them to decent values, but this time I had to set them as minor skills.
I also like having real level up screens again as GCD remove them.

I realize it will not be possible to join and get ranks in as many factions as before, but I guess having 2 or 3 factions (in addition to the main quest ones) for a game gives you enough quests, motivates you to make choices and increases the replay value of MW.
With the no misc skill growth, one really has to think carefully about faction requirements when selecting his major/minor skills, depending on which faction s/he want to join. I'm fine with that, but it's just doesn't suit the novice player.

As I still want to optimize the attribute gain, and as I sometimes have five x2 at a level up, I have the bad feeling of wasting experience.
That's where the GCD principle have a very nice effect: you just don't think about level up multipliers, as you know your attributes will automatically raise in a natural way. Also, you know each skill will raise *several* related attributes, which really seems fair and coherent.

In brief, I think it may be a good mix to have the no misc skill growth and GCD at the same time.
I tried with both mods installed but GMSTs of BTB settings plugin do not stop misc skills from growing when GCD is active. I guess I'll have to edit GCD esp file.

[quote name='Spock' date='12 November 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1289598356' post='16671554']
So far everything seems to work fine. My hp's are fairly low though (38 with a level 6 high elven mage, 25 points in unarmored) so most creatures can oneshot me (the game feels quite difficult, maybe I should train some light armor for hp and endurance).
I had a look into the GCD spreadsheets and one (stat calculator) says something about problems if another mod touches "skill factor modifiers". I dunno what that is, but it probably has something to do with the way skills influence attributes. Did you make changes at that point? Sometimes I have the feeling that some misc skills have a very low influence on attributes (22 skill gain in med armor just got me 1 endurance), dunno if it's intentional or maybe is altered through skill factor modifiers.

[quote name='Spock' date='12 November 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1289598356' post='16671554']
[edit]Hmm... just had a little search in the readme of changes, you did indeed change the skill modifier settings, I would be curious how it influences GCD in detail. In this setting raising attributes only related to misc skills seems a little too hard. Is there a way of fixing it in my current game?
[/quote]

Although the two don't conflict directly (assuming you're using the no misc skill griowth version of my mod) is that Galsiah's mod slows down stat growth in a significant manner that expects you to be raising your misc skills naturally, and thus is going to feel extra harsh when adding in my mod, which was created assuming that game's default attribute multiplier settings.

[quote name='mym' date='13 November 2010 - 02:25 AM' timestamp='1289636732' post='16673359']
I've just spent a couple of hours playing BTB 5.4 (all original plugins), and excluding GCD.

I really like the way the "no misc skill growth" forced me to select as major/minor skills all skills I was actually planing to use: usually, I select skills like mercantile or acrobatics as misc skills as I know I'll still be able to boost them to decent values, but this time I had to set them as minor skills.
[/quote]

Yeah, that was something major i noticed, too. My character currently has Athletics and Acrobatics as major skills, whereas before no sane person would ever take them as such unless they just wanted easy level-ups.

[quote name='mym' date='13 November 2010 - 02:25 AM' timestamp='1289636732' post='16673359']
I realize it will not be possible to join and get ranks in as many factions as before, but I guess having 2 or 3 factions (in addition to the main quest ones) for a game gives you enough quests, motivates you to make choices and increases the replay value of MW.
With the no misc skill growth, one really has to think carefully about faction requirements when selecting his major/minor skills, depending on which faction s/he want to join. I'm fine with that, but it's just doesn't suit the novice player.
[/quote]

That's actually a complaint I've gotten before, particularly about how much of a pain in the ass it is to advance through a faction when having to train up misc skills to do so. It's still an easy ride if your skillset happens to consist of three favored major or minor skills, but barring even just one of them it gets much more difficult.

I am perfectly fine with players having a near-impossible time advancing through factions for which they have no faovred major or minor skills, thus removing such crap as a barbarian joining house Telvanni, but the real thing I want to know is how hard is it to advance through a faction that you have one or two favored skills set as major or minor.

[quote name='mym' date='13 November 2010 - 02:25 AM' timestamp='1289636732' post='16673359']
As I still want to optimize the attribute gain, and as I sometimes have five x2 at a level up, I have the bad feeling of wasting experience.
That's where the GCD principle have a very nice effect: you just don't think about level up multipliers, as you know your attributes will automatically raise in a natural way. Also, you know each skill will raise *several* related attributes, which really seems fair and coherent.
[/quote]

Another major aim of my mod

Though, personally, I don't see how GCD is necessary to the equation. As I pointed out above, it may make the attribute gains a bit TOO difficult, which in turn makes advancing through factions much mroe difficult, as well.

[quote name='mym' date='13 November 2010 - 02:25 AM' timestamp='1289636732' post='16673359']
In brief, I think it may be a good mix to have the no misc skill growth and GCD at the same time.
I tried with both mods installed but GMSTs of BTB settings plugin do not stop misc skills from growing when GCD is active. I guess I'll have to edit GCD esp file.
[/quote]

Yuo'll definitely have to report back about how that plays, because I don't imagine that too many people would be willing to try such a combination.

GCD is not necessary, it just makes the skill progression more natural without the feeling of "wasting" experience.

For instance without GCD, if you gain 2 levels in, say, med armor, long blade, block, mercantile and restoration.
Then you'll reach a level up, and you'll have to choose 3 among five x2, in endurance, strength, agility, personality and willpower, thus increasing your attributes by 6 points, and "loosing" 4 points.
With default GCG, you'll certainly get less than 6 points, but *all* (not just 3) of the 5 skill increase will be took into account for the attribute progressions, and even other related attributes will get a small value : speed (block, med armor, long blade) and intelligence (mercantile, restoration).

Another example: without GCD, if you get 10 levels in long blade, then you'll get a x5 in strength, and you may put one point in willpower and intelligence, even if they are not related at all to handling a sword.
With GCD, you will mainly increase your strength, then a little bit less agility, then speed and endurance, and that's all.

Moreover, with GCD, you don't have to wait for the level up to benefit from the skill progression.


With GCD default settings, it is true. It is harder to get ranks in factions, but each time you reach a new rank, you really have the feeling you deserve it



Sure. As soon as I get it working this way, I'll try a new game and give a feedback of it.

It doesn't seem to be an easy change. GCD doesn't seem to consider the major/minor/misc property of skills, it just bases its calculations on the initial value of each skill. So there is no "misc_skill_increase_coeff" variable to be set to 0 ^^'

Don't forget one can easily customize GCD mod by either using one of the pre made (fairly easy, normal or hard) settings, or by tuning by hand the relevant variables as explained in GCD's doc.
So one can increase the attribute gains if s/he feels GCD + BTBGI is too hard.

Anyway, I played *hours* with both yours and GCD (normal settings) plugins and while it was harder to progress than in the original game, I don't think it was too hard. Each time I wasn't able to progress in a faction anymore because of skill/attributes prerequisite, I just switched to quests of another factions and everything went well. I really like this slow progression and the consequences on the way I play the game.

I'm about to start playing using GCD and all your plugins, I'll let you know how I get on!

When I will start playing Morrowind, I'll be using your mods and Madd Leveler (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=5316). It is almost certainly not completely compatible, but it is far less radical change than GCD. It tries to remove the idea of grinding or planning your character ahead. You only get x1 in all levelups, which means you don't need to bother thinking how to "optimize" those level ups. You gain much of your attributes by using skills which are tied to a certain attribute: for example, if you use Long blade and gain 3 points in it, your strenght will go up by one. And luck increases every 30 skill points or so.

Like BTB, I have only played Morrowind a little bit. I just got a faster computer, so now I can finally play the game properly, although I will be using a lot of mods. In any case, from what I've tested BTB's mods with Madd, I noticed that you have to be careful not to level up as soon as you can, since the game becomes almost impossible due to the fact that your attributes are low when dealing with leveled creatures. It would be good to be able to change the rate when you can level up: instead of after 10 major/minor skill increases, 15 or 20 would be better.

For example, at level 10 you can have placed +50 to your strenght, with Madd, it is possible you get only +10, if you spent one point in each level up to strength. So the monsters can get overpowering .

Could someone playing with BTB's mod or BTB himself tell me how does a heavy armor game experience works? I was wondering about the kill/loot cycle. Say I have the following equipment

Full set of Daedric Armor (with helm)......... 369Daedric claymore............................... 8110 potions*.................................... 205 soulgems..................................... 10                                                                        TOTAL......................................... 480* Also beverages, maybe some ingredients...

I would need to have my strength maxed out just to barely be able to move. The warrior birthsign would give me an extra 100 to carry, but that still wouldn`t give me a good carrying capacity. A Lords mail would give me another 60, because it's ligther.

Should I keep casting feather spells? Kill everything then backtrack-loot them? The lack of CE really reduced the appeal of heavy armors (don't mean to complain, I could just enable it if I wanted)

thanks

-----
edit: added the "*" part

Well, on one hand, I hate the feeling of having to micromanage my skills and feeling like I'm "wasting" multipliers when I do. On the other hand, it's still nice to have to make some sort of hard decision when leveling up, or else you've removed a very important strategic aspect of the game.



That's pretty much what I was aiming for, so that's good to hear.



That seems like an edit better made to MADD leveler than to my mod >.>




Well, to be fair, let's note the fact that you've listed a *full* set of the absolute heaviest armor in the game and topped it off with one of the heaviest weapons. First of all, this sort of stuff *should* be very hard to get ahold of. Unfortunately, under the game's default rules, it isn't. This is one of the many reasons I highly recommend a mod like Morrowind Advanced (specifically, I recommend Morrowind Advanced), as it makes the best (and heaviest) armor in the game more appropriately hard to locate.

Secondly, and somewhat related to the first point, is that I find it rather appropriate that only a warrior-type character who has thoroughly developed his strength should be able to use such equipment with maximum efficiency. In fact, the entire heavy armor class isn't so much as nerfed as you pointed out, but rather much more restricted to powerful fighter-type characters (or at least wizards who work out on occasion).

Remember that the game still has no "hard" limits on what you can and cannot wear (as opposed to most RPGs, which do), and your only limitations in the end are going to be how strong you are (with regards to weight) and how high your skills are, so these much stricter "soft" limits seem much more appropriate.

About the misc skill growth I don't agree. Make them grow slower yes but not disable growth completely. I'm all for slower skill progression, (I've even tweaked Madd leveler to further slow attribute progression which is slow anyway) but I like the freedom Morrowind gives in character development. For example I'm using a spear today but maybe my character will find a nice sword she wants to use. Train a bit in it and then start using it. I'd hate it if I couldn't do it. And it doesn't really make any logical sense why you couldn't do it. Just because you were adept in spear using before you came to Morrowind doesn't mean that you can't learn other stuff as you go. Thats the reason why I am using Madd instead of Galsiah.





Generally I really really like your mod. I'm not using it atm but I agree with almost everything you have changed. I am using other mods (all of wakims and the all the economy mods, dodge mods and others) to accomplish more or less the same things. But some things I wish I could use from your mod. I have already started a game and I have sworn not to add any more major mods, thats the only reason I am not using yours. And because I am little worried about compatibility issues, NOM and Madd leveler are two I can think of right now. But there shouldn't be a problem if I load them after yours right?




Bah screw this I'm gonna install your mods right now. Hope my computer doesn't blow up

Logically, you're correct. The problem with video games is that you're ultimately going to have to make some sacrifices of logic for the sake of gameplay.

There's not much I can say in response that hasn't already said much more eloquently (if not angrier) in my readme >.>



Granted, I don't know much of anything about either mod, but I can't imagine either posing any direct conflicts with my mod.

The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is the slowed growth of the "Settings" plugin mixing with the changes made by MADD Leveler to make growth even slower, which from the sound of things doesn't bother you much.



Good luck. And FYI, my mod was made to replace Wakim's mod, so it shouldn't be necessary once you install mine.

Thanks for your input BTB. I think my barbarian should start eating more spinac... I mean, ash yam!. Since I have your attention, I'd like your opinion on the new balance for the enchant recharge grow in MCP. I read your readme, but I don't know if you were aware of the values.

In vanilla:At enchant 0, using an enchanted item uses 1.1x base charge cost;at enchant 40, it uses 0.7x base charge cost (1.43x total casts from a charged item);at enchant 70, it uses 0.4x base charge cost (2.5x total casts from a charged item);at enchant 100, it uses 0.1x base charge cost (10x total casts from a charged item).When patched:At enchant 0, using an enchanted item uses 1x base charge cost;at enchant 40, it uses 0.9x base charge cost (1.11x total casts from a charged item);at enchant 70, it uses 0.825x base charge cost (1.21x total casts from a charged item);at enchant 100, it used 0.75x base charge cost (1.33x total casts from a charged item).

So

• I can't enchant myself (thanks BTB )
  
• Can't enchant some of the most overbrokering spell effects (thanks you SO MUCH BTB ),
  
• I progress slower when recharging (thanks to who? you guessed... BTB)
  
• Artifacts have weaker enchantments
  
• Soul gems don't regenerate

I know how unbalanced enchant is, and it just might as well have been removed. Still, the only benefit of getting enchant to 100 is to have a 25% better use of a soul gem? Me thinks I learn that magik thingy now. Time to drink my braintorade!

One example from uesp.net, what I think it's the one of the most overpowered uses of enchant (using base cost 6):

The 90 enchantment points ebony staff, with 1-65 for 11s Fire When Strikes, total 14-731dmg, with 400pts soul gem.(vanilla) Enchant 100 costs 9pts = 44 uses(mcp)     Enchant 100 costs 68pts = 6 uses(mcp)     Enchant 0 costs 90pts = 4 uses

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

thanks

Ah, good, I wasn't aware that Hrch had finally addressed this (I haven't really got caught up on his thread). I was actually advocating much more stringent growth restrictions, but I can probably live with these.



Well, in all fairness, I did give a lot of the enchanted items much more useful enchantments than they had before. That is, unless you thought drain fatigue 1-10 points for 3 seconds was actually somehow useful.



Like it was in Oblivion



This is the one manner in which the Enchant skill is still exponential. The benefits of a maxed-out Enchant skill aren't significant until you start dealing with enchanted items that give you 20+ uses at an Enchant skill of 10, which you generally won't acquire until much later on in the game.

But yes, my main aim was to make it so that Enchanting didn't flat-out replace spellcasting ten minutes into the game.




No, that sounds about right. That was one of the main examples that motivated me to do something - anything - to fix the b0rked enchant skill.

and daggerfall...

However with oblivion I've tried enchanting something at the guild, and with the extreme limitations of spells and how to build enchantments i couldn't make anything i thought was worth anything. Making the whole concept of using soulgems and enchanting totally worthless.



I guess it's a matter of playing style, and how you limit yourself. Me personally? I tend to be an enchanter with most spell effects accessible so i can build whatever i want when i need it.

However i don't carry many personally made enchantments; Instead i use my spells and casting as much as i can (and constantly training them during traveling) leaving my enchantments for emergencies and difficult encounters. So although enchanting COULD be too powerful and replace spellcasting, it's a matter of self discipline.

I'm also the type that loves making potions and collects ingredients like mad, and will boost my alchemy up to 300-400+ while i make certain potions, however the only potions i keep on hand tend to be feather potions and a few health/magicka potions for emergencies (Like getting gang [censored] by assassins).

I can sorta understand lowering/turning off regeneration of charges and making constant items more difficult to make; But not being able to make enchantments at all except through services doesn't suit well with me. Especially since i love making enchanted items; And i tend to throw most enchantments in a barrel for older & discarded rings, amulets, gloves and whatever else i don't think I need anymore once it's purpose is completed.

You better start [censored] advocating with some good reasons then. While it's still in beta.


You don't know what exponential really means. If you saw a real exponential it would blow your mind. I don't know if you got the point of icetbr's quote which is the post-patch scaling of not too much at all.


Don't exaggerate; it's more like 20 minutes. Maybe I can add a recast timer to item use somehow.

I think I pretty much ran the issue into the ground back when I discussed it in your topic before, so I've laid off on thr grounds of not really having much new to add to the subject.



I'm not sure why, but I laughed for a solid two minutes at that. I was referring (with regards to the "exponential growth" comment) to the rather significant difference between a 33% increase of an enchanted item that you could normally get 10 uses out of with an Enchant skill of 10 (which would be the ones you'd use through most of the early and mid-game) as compared to one you would get 50 uses out of with the same skill level (which you wouldn't acquire until much later in the game). Yes, the growth rate is in no literal way expoential, but the way it works in practice due to the way the enchant system works still ends up looking that way from a certain viewpoint.

Of course, I'm sure you already knew that

Anyways, I guess I wasn't very clear. Regarding the literal exponential qualities of the skill itself, your new formula is spot on. In fact, you've actually scaled it back farther than I thought you would, which I appreciate. The "stricter" requirements I was referring to was my suggestion that an Enchant skill of 10 - established as your "base" value, IIRC - is a bit too effective in practice.

One of the two main issues I take with the effectiveness of an Enchant skill of 10 is that you can still create and use enchanted items with effects way beyond the means of your character (that is, you wouldn't have any chance of casting a spell with similar effects with a similar skill level in the related school of magicka). This makes sense from a logical perspective, since the one of the percieved main advantages of enchanted items is their user-friendliness. But from a gameplay perspective, it just gives you one more reason why spellcasting takes the ultimate back seat to enchanting.

The other issue is that when you get into the higher-level souls, even powerful enchantments can be spammed to hell and back with low skill levels in Enchant. Take a 50-point fire damage enchamtnment with a 400-point soul, for example, and a character with an Enchant skill of 10 can still use it upwards of 26 times in a row (IIRC). Again, taking the inherent advantages of enchanting into consideration (instant casting time, zero percent failure rate), you're looking at 1,300 points of near-instant, guaranteed damage. I'm aware that you're meant to become more powerful as you level up, but that's way more damage than can possibly be inflicted by any other means possible (barring cheating).

Of course, all of my calulations and statements are made assuming that the player is lugging around a grand soul gem with a Golden Saint stuffed inside, so that's the rather large grain of salt you'll have to take them with. The big drawback to my suggestions is that it makes Enchant a much more difficult skill for newer players to use, so there's no easy solution to the problem that won't have half the Morrowind community wanting to lynch me (as opposed to the, say, 10-20% that want to now).



If you could, that would be the absolute best possible solution. The most unbalancing thing about Enchant isn't the rather large magick reserve you can achieve with higher levels of the skill, but rather how fast you can burn through it.

So, yes, finding a way to implement this would satisfy just about every complaint I have left about the enchanting system and make me love you forever.

Be warned, however, that my love is poisonous.

A cooldown timer for on-use enchantments...I always thought that was in the domain of the impossible.
That would be a balancing dream come true.

Unfortunately, the new rebalance only means that if a 10 Enchant character could cast it 26 times in a row, a 100 Enchant could cast it 32 times. Doesn't seem right.

Maybe. But in BTB's you have to recharge them manually, so you may spam it and then you can't use it for a while. Makes you want to not use it all, or have soulgems on hand just for recharging.

Given the extreme damage potential for even the weakest destructive enchantments, I'd say that i imagine players would be inclined to save them for tough battles.

Updated to version 5.5

Can somebody confirm that GCD ignore fMajorSkillBonus, fMinorSkillBonus, fMiscSkillBonus? I skimmed over its scripts and couldn't find any reference to them. And since it's goal is to replace morrowind's default leveling system, I think they are not used.

If they are, then GCD + BTB + MCP 1.9 will really be tough for a warrior! Mages are favored in GCD, not to say they will be stronger then warriors type characters (but I think they SO will)

EDIT

BTW, BTB have you considered Dedina's "Earn your Keep"? It eliminates the freebies you find in barrels around cities. Sounds reasonable enough, except for your mod already make things more difficult money wise. I also found it interesting, but not for my next paly, the Living of the Land challenge. Very hard core, NoM style :flamethrower:

http://denina.kikaimegami.com/viewtopic.php?t=291
http://denina.kikaimegami.com/viewtopic.php?t=32

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1117777-relz-btbs-game-improvements-40/page__view__findpost__p__16493292

It works on multiple levels.


Okay, I would need some more concrete examples with numbers. Magical artifacts of doomtrain can be tempered into a once a year event, with the right variables.


So, the goal is to reduce magical artifact dps down to something lower than pure physical violence, perhaps bursty damage in exchange for general convenience. If there was a cooldown, would it be a couple of seconds? Longer? How would it interact with mods?