BTB's Game Improvements - The Topic : III

» Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:47 pm

Current version is now 7.0

http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=7904

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:26 am

I use the Alchemy and the Character plugins. To be exact, I should say I use half the Character plugin. I already had a Birthsign mod loaded which I like a lot, so I kinda chopped that part off the Char plugin (sorry BTB

). I don't use the Spell or Settings since, by the time I found this, I had already made my own similar balancing mods. Finally, the Equipment plugin wouldn't fit very well with the rest of my loadlist, so I don't use it.

I guess that's it.

» Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:12 pm

I use them all. I use the alternate version of Settings, that is, misc skills do not stop. Personally I don't think it is realistic, since a very good way to learn is through experience, not just by training or studying books etc. Some skills, which you specialize to, can be learned more quickly, but virtually anything can be learned by experience.

I use Madd Leveler at the moment, so I get only +1 to three different attributes anyway on level up, so combining that with the "misc skills don't grow" would make things impossible. That is, you can never get +5 to a an attribute on level up, only +1. Madd Leveler also gives you an ability point to a related attribute for three levels of each skills, which makes it difficult enough already... and luck grows very slowly too.

I also use your edited versions of Service Requirements, Better Clothes, Economy Adjuster Merchant edit, and Economy Adjuster Crime tresspass edit. And of course, Service Requirements 1.4.3 edit. So that's all of them. Perhaps you could combine those into your BTB mod

.

But I haven't really played much now, since I keep adding mods, and it takes time and I have hit the 255 mod limit

.

edit: added the point about Madd Leveler

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:21 am

I only use equipment plugin combined with Wakim's game improvements.

Character plugin would conflict with more fun races/birthsigns mod which I currently use. Might change for the next character though.
Alchemy, well I kinda like the convenience to look at wiki for a desired effect and see what components can do that, and your plugin changes some of them.
Settings, no CE is a no damn way, restore health/fatigue are especially important to reduce the tedium of having to constantly monitor your condition (ooh, I'm getting slightly tired, ooh, some anklebiter has scratched my toe), I just want to play my damn game instead of constantly being pestered by some trivia. It's not like 4 point restoration will help you in a tough fight anyway. For those settings that I do like and that are not present in Wakim's mod already I made my own plugin.
Spells. Again, forbidding this and that automatically excludes it from my list.

Generally I don't like this "off limits" approach. It's a single player game and people should be allowed to decide for themselves what is good for them instead of forcing it down their throat. Only things that player has no control over should be balanced. E.g. ridiculously expensive loot - player can't simply choose not to take stuff since bringing home loot and selling it is a major part of the game so it should be balanced. OTOH everyone can decide what spells or enchantments or potions they should be able to make and whatnot. If some people enjoy using them to make god-like characters why take it away from them?

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:55 am

I use Madd Leveler at the moment, so I get only +1 to three different attributes anyway on level up, so combining that with the "misc skills don't grow" would make things impossible. That is, you can never get +5 to a an attribute on level up, only +1. Madd Leveler also gives you an ability point to a related attribute for three levels of each skills, which makes it difficult enough already... and luck grows very slowly too.

I think this would explain a lot, actually.

I also use your edited versions of Service Requirements, Better Clothes, Economy Adjuster Merchant edit, and Economy Adjuster Crime tresspass edit. And of course, Service Requirements 1.4.3 edit. So that's all of them. Perhaps you could combine those into your BTB mod

.

I haven't for the same reason I haven't just combined all of the mods on my list into a single download

Alchemy, well I kinda like the convenience to look at wiki for a desired effect and see what components can do that, and your plugin changes some of them.

You DO know I provide a html page in the download that does the same thing, right? >.>

Generally I don't like this "off limits" approach. It's a single player game and people should be allowed to decide for themselves what is good for them instead of forcing it down their throat.

A valid point, but I look at it in the sense that I can and will abuse any valid gameplay mechanic I can in the interest of winning. So, basically, I'm looking at this more from the perspective of a game designer, not a game player.

Only things that player has no control over should be balanced. E.g. ridiculously expensive loot - player can't simply choose not to take stuff since bringing home loot and selling it is a major part of the game so it should be balanced. OTOH everyone can decide what spells or enchantments or potions they should be able to make and whatnot. If some people enjoy using them to make god-like characters why take it away from them?

Because a part of me feels like it shouldn't have been made that way in the first place (again, mind of a game designer talking here). But I know what you mean, and it really does svck that I had to nix quite a bit of legitimate gameplay mechanics just because they could be abused like a set of perky nipbles.

» Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:32 pm

I use all plugins.
I've just altered the settings one by reverting skill growth changes as I also use GCD (and I still haven't finished my game I started before those changes).

edit: replaced "no caps" with "skill growth", sorry BTB

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:10 am

I think "cap" is not really the best word to use, since a cap is really something totally different from what I've done.

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:48 am

I seem to be having a small problem with BTB and GCD: When GCD initiates and recalculates attributes my Fey bonus (from mage sign) of fortify intelligence 20 seems to be gone (it is not displayed in character stats, and the number does not indicate a fortified attribute).
I'd try to fix it by removing and then re adding the Fey effect in the console. My noob under skills tell me to ask fist about how to do it without breaking anything

Thanks in advance

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:23 pm

I seem to be having a small problem with BTB and GCD: When GCD initiates and recalculates attributes my Fey bonus (from mage sign) of fortify intelligence 20 seems to be gone (it is not displayed in character stats, and the number does not indicate a fortified attribute).
I'd try to fix it by removing and then re adding the Fey effect in the console. My noob under skills tell me to ask fist about how to do it without breaking anything

Thanks in advance

Um... weird? Weird in the sense that GCD shouldn't be doing that, I mean.

What's your mod list look like?

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:56 am

Um... weird? Weird in the sense that GCD shouldn't be doing that, I mean.

What's your mod list look like?

I use the lean version with removed code comments found http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1031661-galsiahs-character-development-gcd-bug-report/page__hl__galsiah__st__80.
My modlist:

Spoiler

Plugin1=Morrowind.esm
Plugin6=Tribunal.esm
Plugin7=Bloodmoon.esm
Plugin8=Texture Fix 1.8.esm
Plugin9=Book Rotate.esm
Plugin10=Bloodmoon Landscape Overhaul 1.0.esm
Plugin11=Morrowind Patch v1.6.4.esm
Plugin12=Morrowind Advanced.esm
Plugin13=Imp Guard anticlone.esm
Plugin14=Beryl's_Head_Replacer_v1.0.esm
Plugin15=Rise of House Telvanni.esm
Plugin16=Textured_Signs_Neutral.esp
Plugin17=Beds4Rent.esp
Plugin18=shrinetext.esp
Plugin19=Passive_Healthy_Wildlife.esp
Plugin20=Vivec_Voice_addon TRIBUNAL.esp
Plugin21=Dagoth Gares_Voice_addon v1.1.esp
Plugin22=Dagoth Ur Voice Addon v1.0.esp
Plugin23=dracandrosvoice.esp
Plugin24=Scripted_Spells.esp
Plugin25=Marksman Enhanced v1.2.esp
Plugin26=MW_Adv_PHW.esp
Plugin27=Hendalf_Gold_v.1.3_ENG.esp
Plugin28=Clean Better Daedric.esp
Plugin29=NV_BB_Imp_female_Armour.esp
Plugin30=Vampire_Embrace.esp
Plugin31=Improved Cursed Items.esp
Plugin32=MWInhabitants Flee AI Patch.esp
Plugin33=MWInhabitants - Pickpockets!.esp
Plugin34=CB-frostbolt_flare.esp
Plugin35=CB-illusionbolt1.0.esp
Plugin36=dej_plain_paper_fix.esp
Plugin37=NewBlood_MwTbBm1.1.esp
Plugin38=TravelingMerchants_v2.2.esp
Plugin39=Book Rotate - Tribunal v5.3.esp
Plugin40=Expanded Sounds.esp
Plugin41=Syc_HerbalismforPurists (Pearl Bug Edit).esp
Plugin42=MWE_Base.esp
Plugin43=BTB - Settings (Alternate).esp
Plugin44=New Argonian Bodies - Clean.esp
Plugin45=Shieldfx.esp
Plugin46=New Khajiit Bodies - Clean.esp
Plugin47=Particle Arrow Replacer.esp
Plugin48=Building Up Uvirith's Legacy1.1.ESP
Plugin49=IceBradyHurdyRobeReplacerALL.esp
Plugin50=horationpcenhanced12-ve.esp
Plugin51=Syc_HerbalismforPurists_BM.esp
Plugin52=Syc_HerbalismforPurists_TB.esp
Plugin53=Improved Skilled Magicka.esp
Plugin54=Uvirith's Legacy_Final_2.0.esp
Plugin55=Protective Guards.esp
Plugin56=UL_RoHT_1.4_Compatibility.esp
Plugin57=UL_MWSE_patch.esp
Plugin58=UL_TLM_ambiance.esp
Plugin59=Give your orders v13.esp
Plugin60=TLM - Complete.esp
Plugin61=Less Annoying Guards - Tribunal and Bloodmoon.esp
Plugin62=P.R.E. v4.0.esp
Plugin63=Nudity Greeting Expansion V1.esp
Plugin64=New fire damage effect v1.1 .esp
Plugin65=Readable Rotatable Books.esp
Plugin66=The Neverhalls.esp
Plugin67=Almalexia_Voicev1.esp
Plugin68=barilzar_voice.esp
Plugin69=SirLuthor-Tools.esp
Plugin70=Unique Banners and Signs.esp
Plugin71=Better Bodies.esp
Plugin72=DB_Attack_Mod.esp
Plugin73=RKWerewolf.esp
Plugin74=correctUV Ore Replacer 1.0.esp
Plugin75=Key Replacer Trib & BM.esp
Plugin76=BetterBooks_AlchFormfix.esp
Plugin77=K_Potion_Upgrade_1.2.esp
Plugin78=Barabus' fireplaces 2.esp
Plugin79=Vampire Realism II.esp
Plugin80=Vampire Realism II - TB Add-On.esp
Plugin81=GCDWhittleUb.esp
Plugin82=Vampire Realism II - BM Add-On.esp
Plugin83=Vampire Realism II - VE Patch.esp
Plugin84=STA_guides_replacer.esp
Plugin85=Book Rotate - Bloodmoon v5.3.esp
Plugin86=BTB - Character.esp
Plugin87=BTB - Spells.esp
Plugin88=BTB - Alchemy.esp
Plugin89=BTB - Equipment.esp
Plugin90=MWE_Blocking.esp
Plugin91=MWE_Combat.esp
Plugin92=moons_soulgems.esp
Plugin93=LightTheWayScriptBM.esp
Plugin94=Better Clothes_v1.1 (BTB Edit).esp
Plugin95=MW_Adv_Required (BTB Edit).esp
Plugin96=The Forgotten Halls 1.0 (BTB Edit).esp
Plugin97=Pursuit Enhanced.esp
Plugin98=Merged_Objects.esp
Plugin99=Mashed Lists.esp

[edit]post polished

» Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:46 pm

Hmm... big mod list, with lots of stuff I don't recognize.

First thing I'd do is untick everything except BTBGI and GCD and then see if you continue to have the same problem. If you do, we'll take it from there.

EDIT: oh, and I think the spoiler tags are just that:

[spoiler]
stuff
[/spoiler]

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:51 am

I use all of your mods, and I use the hardcoe original settings plugin. I was actually experimenting with a way to cap skills like you want, 100 for Major, 70 for Minor, and 40 for Misc, but the way that I found left a terrible exploit and loophole open because of how Morrowind is hardcoded. Basically I can create global variable counters that keep track of your characters skills, and use some scripting to keep them at the capped level once they reach that point, but it wouldn't stop you from leveling them up and having them reduced inevitably. I thought about creating a script that could maybe set the growth rate to some stupid extreme level, like 99999999999 once it reaches the capped level, but this wouldn't stop you from purchasing training and increasing it that way and receiving levels through training a skill.

Hrnchand, we need you!!!!!!!!

» Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:29 pm

Hmm... big mod list, with lots of stuff I don't recognize.

First thing I'd do is untick everything except BTBGI and GCD and then see if you continue to have the same problem. If you do, we'll take it from there.

It's mostly aesthetic stuff.
With just BTBGI and GCD the problem persists

Intelligence gets recalculated to 55 at the time GCD initializes (right after leaving the office at game start). In the office intelligence is 80 (Altmer, Mage, Mage). Outside it drops to 55 (GCD probably reduces the base int from 60 to 55).

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:24 am

I use all of your mods, and I use the hardcoe original settings plugin. I was actually experimenting with a way to cap skills like you want, 100 for Major, 70 for Minor, and 40 for Misc, but the way that I found left a terrible exploit and loophole open because of how Morrowind is hardcoded. Basically I can create global variable counters that keep track of your characters skills, and use some scripting to keep them at the capped level once they reach that point, but it wouldn't stop you from leveling them up and having them reduced inevitably. I thought about creating a script that could maybe set the growth rate to some stupid extreme level, like 99999999999 once it reaches the capped level, but this wouldn't stop you from purchasing training and increasing it that way and receiving levels through training a skill.

Hrnchand, we need you!!!!!!!!

Actually, as much as I wanted the hard caps at first, I've found that I actually rather like it the way I've got it now.

Also, I must say that I'm rather surprised at the poll results. I sort of always figured that the "Character" plugin was the one that people always actually used, whereas the "Settings" plugin was more of the bastard stepchild of the lot.

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:29 am

It's mostly aesthetic stuff.
With just BTBGI and GCD the problem persists

Intelligence gets recalculated to 55 at the time GCD initializes (right after leaving the office at game start). In the office intelligence is 80 (Altmer, Mage, Mage). Outside it drops to 55 (GCD probably reduces the base int from 60 to 55).

Hmm...

In that case, I'd run two more tests. First, I'd create a totally different character with The Mage to see if this result is consistent. Secondly, I'd create a new character with The Lord or The Warrior (other birthsigns that now have a stat boost where they previously didn't) to see if it works that way with all of them.

I honestly don't think it does, if nothing else than because I think I would have heard about this by now.

EDIT: wait... just went back and read an old discussion I had with Galsiah. I think I have the solution to the problem... we need to get rid of the Level-Up Birthsign-Remover Script.

I can either tell you how to do it yourself (it's quite easy), or I can do it for you.

» Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:04 pm

Hmm...

In that case, I'd run two more tests. First, I'd create a totally different character with The Mage to see if this result is consistent. Secondly, I'd create a new character with The Lord or The Warrior (other birthsigns that now have a stat boost where they previously didn't) to see if it works that way with all of them.

I honestly don't think it does, if nothing else than because I think I would have heard about this by now.

EDIT: wait... just went back and read an old discussion I had with Galsiah. I think I have the solution to the problem... we need to get rid of the Level-Up Birthsign-Remover Script.

I can either tell you how to do it yourself (it's quite easy), or I can do it for you.

I think I could do it myself if you tell me how to (probably some configuration of GCD through the console?)

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:25 am

I think I could do it myself if you tell me how to (probably some configuration of GCD through the console?)

Actually, you'll be editing the plugin itself.

Download this: http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Utilities.Detail&id=24

Use it to open BTB - Character, and then go to Editor -> view all .esp data

Then click on the entry for the birthsign script, like i have in this screenshot: http://btb2.free.fr/temp/tespcd.jpg

And then hit delete. This will delete the entry and save the mod. Then, just start a new game (I'm assuming you've just started out and haven't really done anything yet)

» Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:39 pm

Actually, you'll be editing the plugin itself.

Download this: http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Utilities.Detail&id=24

Use it to open BTB - Character, and then go to Editor -> view all .esp data

Then click on the entry for the birthsign script, like i have in this screenshot: http://btb2.free.fr/temp/tespcd.jpg

And then hit delete. This will delete the entry and save the mod. Then, just start a new game (I'm assuming you've just started out and haven't really done anything yet)

It worked, thanks for your help (and for your great balancing mod)

Now I got something to ;D

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:37 am

Ok, so the archive from the link in the first post contains readmes indicating changes for 5.4, but the actual ESP files are from the previous version.

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:41 am

It worked, thanks for your help (and for your great balancing mod)

Now I got something to ;D

Np. It's actually good to finally have a first-hand account of the... wonkiness between GCD and my mod.

Next time I update, I'll have to address this somehow

Ok, so the archive from the link in the first post contains readmes indicating changes for 5.4, but the actual ESP files are from the previous version.

Huh?

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:09 am

Huh?

:banghead: Yep, my bad. TES CS does not change the dates of the files, so I assumed the files were same.

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:42 am

Actually, it does. I have to manually edit the dates on the plugins every time I update them.

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:58 am

I don't actually use any of the plugins (due to potential conflicts with GCD), but I have copied most of the GMST changes in the Settings plugin to my own custom settings mod. Thanks for making this mod - and more importantly, documenting the changes as thoroughly as you have. Much appreciated!

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:27 am

Okay...the first 3 mods work for me...but the Settings one makes me CTD. Any ideas?

EDIT...

Forgot to mention...the message I get is Expression error unable to find cell ID "Blackened Spires" in script strong_Buildl_S

EDIT 2...

Nevermind...I think it had to do with the 6th House mod.

» Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:56 am

I love it when people answer their own questions. Makes my job a hell of a lot easier.