So no options for hair - just Ren's Hair 01.

I am thinking one of the add ons is superimposing on the others but even so, you would think I would get more than just one option?

I am calling it a day. Not sure how with so many hair styles from so many mods that I am only able to select one. If anyone has ever encountered this problem please let me know. Thanks!

Ok saw load order on the first page.

Of what value is it to add all those races if your only going to play one? Same with CM partners - you can always add them later after you get your load order functional.

Same with Open cities - it does not need to be added at the beginning of the game. In fact I found a reason not to use it at all - Enhanced Daedric Invasion, which places extra guards in the cities that offer mini quests. They will only sometimes be found with Open Cities installed.

also your planning on running QTPIII (what is qark??) Redimized + Open Cities + FCOM + maxing out textures on NPCs + a max load order - you will see your FPS sink constantly with a 512 vram card. I have a 1 gig vram and I don't use QTP III Redimized on exteriors. huh uh.

Many others again are not necessary at the start of a new game. I'm sorry to harp on this point, but you're setting yourself up for failure. Your going to think it is all set and start off and run into complex bugs that may have 5 or more mods contributing to them.

Not only did you say that you wanted to add some eye candy but then you go hog wild and add so much race mods as that??? Did you add them before or after RBP? How are you installing these mods ... manually, OBMM, BAIN? Are you paying attention to install order? If manual then you are really gonna hate uninstalling a replacer that overwrote another replacer for another mod when you uninstall the first mod in question. ooof - you seem all about learning the hard way.

Maybe you ought to look into what the point of Race Balancing Project is. There is a lot to it. It attempts to integrate many of the more popular mod added races into one mod with the intention of balancing their powers and abilities so that none are that overpowered (or underpowered). For instance Mystic Elves are the Hidden Elves of RBP. It also contains the most comprehensive beauty overhaul of hairs and eyes your going to find and has patches for adding these races to encounters. All the Race mods you are adding may be undoing some of what it does even if RBP is loaded last.

And then mods like Dulan Cult and I'd bet you haven't cleaned it yet - that is gonna give ya some headaches for sure. Are you cleaning all those mods? Any of those mods older than a year should be cleaned (really almost all quest mods should be cleaned).

You really ought to consider dropping all those weather tweaks in favor of just starting with All Natural which will do all that they do plus more.

Time to tear apart your load order..



You should really read over boss log and do what is says, you are using a few mods that are not supposed to be used in FCOM.

Choose only one TNR Shivering Isle Esp once again not them both, either with helms or without helms.

You should be using EVE_StockEquipmentReplacer4FCOM.esp instead of vanilla version. Stated in EVE thread once again.

Armamentarium - use the LL4OOO version, use LLVendors, and look in ArmamentariumThread for LLMagic4OOO.esp..to replace LLMagic.esp. Pretty sure I have a load order guide in Armamentarium Thread that stated what to use and what not to use.

--------

All those mods that are listed below bashed patched need to load before bashed patch. Bashed Patch should always load last!!!

All Those Race mods are really not neccsessary once again, you are using Race Balancing Project which contains many or them or varations has well. No need to go all out with Races once again. Has they will conflict with Race Balancing Project. Remove them and just stick with Race Balancing Project.

You are just trying to do too much at one time I think, ? have you even played fcom to make sure that is was stable before you started adding in all these mods.

And how are you installing your mods either via omod or bain We hope so, Because if doing it manually you are in for a headache removing mods that are not needed. aka race mods in particular..

• Races: Why I added so many? Two reasons, ONE - some of the CM Companions required them and TWO - I felt adding some race alternatives would add even more variety though I did make the wrong assumption that these races did play a role in the game.
  
• Open Cities - I found out about this when reviewing Dev Akm's write up on various mods available for Oblivion. Really nice summary which was easy to follow http://devnull.sweetdanger.net/other.html, and one of the ones presented was Animated Lighting which happened to work with Open Cities. Upon reading more about Open Cities I found out that it offered a number of compatibility patches for other mods. Based on this, I took the risk that perhaps I could add it and not experience too many problems.
  
• QTP3 Redimized - I read over it, nothing in its description suggested my system would not be able to handle it - pending of course on what other mods I install.
  
• Distance Viewing - I actually chose the mod which is suppose to be VRAM 'friendly'.. One that allows me choices pending on whether my system can handle it. Here is what is said in the mods Readme: A modest approach to distant viewable objects, aka LOD. You're all familiar with the various LOD packages, right? Some provide more than others. Some ar geared specifically toward super-high end machines. One isn't even designed to be played and will cripple anything currently on the market today. For the rest of us, myself included, we'd just like to enhance the visual experience without crippling the game. None of the available packages has been fully optimized, usually with large amounts of unnecessary data still attached. In order to address these issues, I've decided to compile into one source as many useful LOD objects as can be reasonably applied to the game from the following sources.
  
• Failing: I am not a Mod a Month type of person. That may get me in trouble here and there but it also fast tracks my understanding of mods etc. Its about personality, some people play it safe and others like to push things including their systems. Whatever my approach may be, it cannot be denied that I am learning this stuff at an accelerated pace - thank of course in large part to people like yourself who are assisting me.
  
• RBP - I did look at it. Readme is very difficult and thats why I opted to use 'TheNiceOne's tool to install. I will read over the details again thought to get a better understanding of it.
  
• Dulan Cult - Suggested FCOM add on. I installed all FCOM add ons trusting they had tested it otherwise why would they recommend it?
  
• BAIN & MOD - I actually did use these much more this time around than in the past. I am not sure if that will prove helpful in undoing some problems I may have created. My sense is file overwrites occur all the time and ultimately if the install is messed up enough it may warrant a fresh install of everything - nice thing is I have all my install files on my computer and logged in order of install to make the process easier.
  
• Weather Tweaks - Again, the weather mods I added were things I read about on the mod summary pages offered by Dev_Akm. The ones I specifically chose from the description seem to work good together as long as the load order was correct. My understanding is that Natural Weather has some issues so that is the reason I opted not to use it.

I think at this point, I will remove the open cities, greatly reduce the amount of CM Partners and eliminate all additional races I added after FCOM & RBP. Thanks for your insights! I will get this right eventually.

• I hadn't been following BOSS log as much since the recent add ons it does not recognize. Also, the FCOM BOSS masterlist is really outdated so I use the 'mainstream' one put out on Sept 20th. Not saying I don't look at the BOSS Log - but not as frequently as before.
  
• TNR - I did only choose one - the no helms version or did you see something I missed?
  
• EVE - Done via OMOD. I thought I chose correctly, but you are right, I have a number of EVE Stock Equipment Replacers. I think the assumption I made was, since FCOM does have OOO, MMM then I needed to choose versions for those too along with the FCOM one. I will make the necessary changes - thanks.
  
• Armamentariaum - A little lost on your comments. It looks as if I chose all the files you pointed to except for the LLMagic4000.esp which I probably missed due to assuming the 'Complete' version download included it.
  
• Bashed Patch - I actually left those files where they are to illustrate BOSS had not recognized them and since this was the case, if any experienced modders were looking over my load order they could easily find these files and offer suggestions on where they should go etc. I know to put them above BASH when launching of course! (I did learn a little bit in the past week )
  
• FCOM - I did play the game and everything seemed fine. I believe most of the issues now are related to additional mods I added on after a successful FCOM install.
  
• Installing & Uninstalling - I think you are right. I don't want to but part of me thinks I may have to do a fresh install. Big misconception on my part, I assumed additional races played a role in the game, meaning they appear and you have an opportunity to interact with them etc. I understand now this is not the case - my bad. Anyway, thanks for your insights.

For what you seem to want to do BAIN is really the only installer that fits the bill. I can uninstall my load order with a few clicks and perhaps reinstall in an hour or two (seriously only bain can do that with extensive load orders).

CorePC is of course right in that you seem to not read the readme (a common side effect of adding too much too soon). Your questions are way way too noobish to be matched with the kinds of mods and amount of mods you are wanting to install. You make the mistake of assuming that it is all ready made in shiny packages ready to just plug and play and it just isn't.

As an example - I'm about to add (or at least test out) 4 different mods today. this will take me about an hour and half at most. It would take me much much longer if I didn't already have a working load order and extensive experience using that load order.

Playtesting does not mean just wondering around in the tutorial dungeon and then maybe outside for a while. Try leveling your character, fast traveling like crazy, battles, sneaking, shopping, talking - all that.

So FCOM was installed OK - if that is true then as I posted in a previous thread install the rest in small lumps and test again as above.

the failure is in assuming that just because Dev_Akm said it is gospel (see my signature). No disrespect to Dev at all but his mod recommendations are becoming dated. Any older quest mods are going to need to be cleaned (and just to make sure i'm right ... looking on his quest list: http://knol.google.com/k/devnull-devakm/toql-big-quest-mods/2xu0v7u1nzut0/4# even he states "This mod has some conflict issues with a lot of other mods, but most of these issues can be solved by http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes4Mod:Tes4View#Cleaning_a_Dirty_Plugin."

So by assuming that your load order is Dev_Akm's responsibility you are setting yourself up for failure. It is not. the FCOM patches themselves have had only very very few updates in the last year and a half. OOO and MMM have been updated that is true, but not much of the FCOM patching has been. That becomes an issue when in the last year it has become common knowledge that cleaning mods is a great way to prevent ctds and increase stability. The patches made for Dulan Cult, Umbra, Blood and Mud were all made before mod cleaning was a norm. No fault to Dev because I don't recall him (or CorePC or any other FCOM developer) ever stating just because a patch was made that they garauntee the mod to work right. That is your misconception and misunderstanding based in the high hopes that by sticking with FCOM you are sure to have no problems.

There are not that many mods that require you to have it loaded at the start of a game - some leveling mods, RBP, and basic FCOM at best.

My suggestions remain the same - stop trying to make it perfect and just play for a while. A mod a month? How about just two a day? -stick with just two a day- Some will have more than a one or two plugins so that will make it go much faster and in a month you will have a pretty full load order.

I know all of this because I too tried (twice if I recall correctly) to install it all at once (255 mods) and then failed - twice. Slow down - some things have no shortcuts.

Firstly, when I downloaded Armamentarium Complete, I assumed it would include all updates - even the FCOM one. Fact is, the readme makes no mention of the new file. Sometimes what information is presented in the thread and what is attached in the readme files of the downloads are not the same. In my book - complete means everything but I understand that such oversights can happen, especially with some who are prolific creators/developers. Furthermore, this is not the first time this has occurred - readme files can be outdated or some information can be excluded. It happens, but some of you are attempting to blame me for not reading carefully or suggesting my comments are ''newbie-ish is not warranted.

Secondly, I am not blaming anyone, especially Dev Akm. However, I can say there are a few people whom I trust based on what is clearly extensive experience in modding etc. When you are new at something you try to follow and learn from those who are more experienced. My not getting it right does not mean they are wrong, but at the same time, I have already clearly shown how a new person can be confused by some aspects which need to be cleared up - developers can also learn from me in some aspects.

Lastly, I appreciate the insights you offer but understand it is for those of a technical nature... when it comes to our personalities, mindset and approach to gaming I think we are totally different... I believe in risk reward, the more you push something the higher chances of it paying off in a big way but also of it failing... if I wanted to play it safe, I would never have even come to these forums...

Actually no we are not that different and the old timers around here definitely will remember the threads I created challenging them to prove that a 255 load order is even possible. They spent time breaking me down on that too.

But I was determined to do this - just like you. I just needed to be tempered. I probably have more active mods running than 90% of the users on this forum with many of them merged (really merged not just bash).

I'm not saying that you should blame anyone or meditate on guilt or anything. Your load order is your responsibility. As the Author of Blood and Mud put it to me - the more you know about something the more you can do. ~Ryan~ spoke mostly in riddles at that.

The train wreck that is waiting to happen is avoidable. the more you add without testing the more you are going to have to take apart what you added to find the problem. If you add slowly then finding the problem generally goes much smoother. If your getting thoughts that maybe you should reinstall - then that too is a sign that your going to fast and not taking notes.

If you add 10 mods and only test to see and only test to see if the game loads then you are going to be excelling in the 'what the heck happened to my load order' threads, or even posting 'are you guys serious this is too much' threads - oh that has already happened huh???

So you add 10 mods with very minimal testing then are happy the game loads. You go outside and travel from wilderness cell to wilderness cell. Then ctd. Now was it:
1. A corrupt spawn point that can happen with MMM in FCOM?
2. A missing or corrupted mesh from a mod you added?
3. System overload from too many replacers?
4. System overload from too much AI?
5. Script conflcits or script errors on that new mod (oh but which one was it again)?
6. any number of other things that I can't think of off the top of my head?
7. all the above.

by not testing each mod out (and you could test maybe 2-3 at a time) your going to face this question again and again and again. Add on top of that not reading the readme and realizing that, for example, a simple quest mod could also affect something completely unrelated either because of dirty edits, mod makers whim, or simple conflcits. Take for example the mod A Strange Cave - which places a cave south of Bravil. Because of dirty edits it interferes with the ability to finish the Thieves Guild questline - and yet it in no way even touches that in terms of what the cave is and does. The mod ICEXPAND has a script that causes ctds at noon after a couple of days - you could be walking along in the woods having not been to the Imperial City for a while then blamo.

Now get this - all the mods your adding - you may be the first to discover a conflict it is having. the very first person. Or at least the first to report it. But only if you can know your load order and how to deal with it.

We have all had the desire to have extensive load orders with minimal hassles and have rushed in at various speeds only to be crushed by the unrelenting set of rules that modding Oblivion (or really any game) demands. The high risk/high reward is a sales pitch for playing OOO and FCOM not installing it.

At this point I've said it all already. Maybe if someone else said it.

To my defense and team's that I represent.

ArmamentariumComplete it still a Work In Progress, Has We continue to update and make it better. Just like the rest of the Mods that I and Other Work has on has a TEAM. It says complete. because everything that was ever related to Armamentarium is included into one mod now. And still expanding on it

If you read the armamentariumcomplete1.3.txt under the LLOOO.esp it states this..



which is referring to the LLMagicOOO.esp that I released on this forum for beta testing that is listed in Arma Thread itself.

This was not included in Main Download has it was still in development and just recenlty released for beta testing but should work fine has no one reported any major problems with it yet.

So I did included the note about enchanted items so it was there just hidden.

But not going to continue disuccision any further.

Everyone has their own opinion after all..

Corepc

I have to point out that risk/reward isn't often a great way to implement mods in Oblivion. As Psymon has stated, starting up the game does not equal success, oftentimes on-start CTD's are the easiest to trouble shoot, because often it simply comes to down to disabling mods until it works. Actually playing the game and encountering problems is a much more complicated process than disabling mods, which is why you need to know exactly what mods are affecting certain areas. Programs like TES4Edit can greatly help you out in many cases, like corrupted meshes or spawn points, because you can see which mod affects the cell that CTD'd you. However, it cannot detect scripting fallacies (to my knowledge), or tell you how much your computer can take before it starts crashing on you.

I just recently got a serious problem with Oblivion that caused me to reinstall the game, simply because I had so many mods that affected the game so drastically I couldn't tell what affected what in the game. At one point I had added 32 separate plug-ins to the game without playing once. Hell, for about a month, all I did was add mods to Oblivion, and I'd only play for about 15 minutes a week, then say "I'm bored. Let's add mods!" (Seriously.) and go download mods. I had close to 130 gb of downloaded modding material, around 40 gigs of which was actually in my Data folder. I added mods left and right and barely ever played, and a few days ago I finally stumped myself because of it. Too many mods. I can't playtest 30 different new mods and see exactly which one causes problems in certain areas.

We can't make you add mods slower, or play test the game thoroughly. But I am under the assumption that this thread was made because you wanted to create a vast, working, shiny new load order with plenty of ways to keep your Oblivion playing process smooth. And the fact of the matter is that in order to achieve that, you need to be careful. That may or may not mean playtesting every mod one by one and knowing every function (which we may seem like we're suggesting you to do. Rather, we know it's time consuming and tedious, and we know you don't want to do it). It means reading EVERY readme for EVERY mod, reading descriptions thoroughly (I'm not saying you don't but I have to say that it's important), adding them slowly (I don't mean one at a time, playtest each for 15 minutes and add another, I mean add 3-5 at a time, playtest for about an hour, have FUN, then decide what to do with the plug ins), and cleaning mods (another complicated process. Luckily many popular mod makers do this already.)

I know we seem like boring old timers, and it's not like I'm the most qualified to speak about this either. I only joined this forum in June, and I only first got this game last May. But still, it is considered common knowledge that Oblivion is like a high-class women. She wants quality merchandise (good mods), a willing provider that does all the work (you, spending your time playtesting and cleaning mods), and a suitable environment (a computer that can handle the mods). Don't beat her (add mods profusely and get mad when things fall apart), and don't get her to the point where she'll stab you with a rusty spoon (game-breaking CTD/reinstallation).

Point of my rambling: Huge mod lists that work perfectly are IMPOSSIBLE. There will always be issues, and the only thing you can do is try to prevent most of them. The game was not designed to do what many mods do to the game (just look at OBSE, or its plug-ins. That's essentially hacking Oblivion) and we're all determined to add a crapload of mods, which most of the time cannot be handled. Tread carefully, and try not to get stabbed with a rusty spoon.

/end rambling

CorePC:
I did not think my comments warranted an explanation on your part or rather a 'defense'. When I download something that is stated as complete then I assume it is so especially since that file is a current one - if the readme is not entirely up to date then is the onus on me or you to remedy that? This is not the first time either I have been told by you to go through a specific readme file which then later you mentioned was outdated. That said, I am not pointing figures at you or complaining, I am merely suggesting it can happen and indeed it did - now what you do with that information is up to you. Blame the person who notices the discrepancy, dismiss them as being careless, un-attentive, a newbie etc in the end it makes no difference to me but perhaps other new people would be best served if the readme files and the information posted on threads correlated better. Just a suggestion.

Then again, these are beta versions so perhaps I should not even bother to download them until they have been more thoroughly tested and up-to-date.

Psymon:
As much as you are not getting to me, I don't think I am getting through to you. I don't need to reinvent the wheel, if others who have more experience with playing and modding have already testing things out then I can simply follow their lead and should be able to achieve a relative high level of success. Only reason for recent issues were due to choices I made on what more mods to add. Something which I already have specified how I will remedy.

Anyways, enough said. Those who wish to help - great. If my approach bothers you, if you feel I am unworthy of responses - then don't. In the end, I will get this game up and running to my satisfaction.

I had the same problem!!! OMG I did the exact same thing lol! Then finally, when I went to play, CTDed left and right... This reinstall I'm doing better though. I auto clean (I don't have the experience to do it manually) EVERY mod I download (exept FCOM, UOP, and other mods your not supposed to download.) and play test after activating at least every 3. I install using BAIN, and OMODs for a few, and read the readmes very carefully. I have only about halve the plugins I did in my last install (about 70-80 now) but unlike my last one, I can play for hours without CTDs, and I have cleaned to the extent where I don't even crash on exit anymore. If you ask me, cleaning mods is a MUST.


You said that REALLY well! Rusty sppon lol!


This, I would have to disagree with! Back when I played morrowind, I have a 200+ list of mods. The game wasn't even morrowind anymore, it was my personal fantasy. Literally, when people visited me, even my cousin who is a seasoned Elder Scrolls player, they would ask me: "What the hell are you playing?!?!?!?" And I made it work SO perfectly, to the point of making patches for mods and even mods my self, that the last two months I played, I never experienced one CTD. It's not impossible, but be prepared to spend YEARS to accomplish it. I was the geek all the way through high school, and morrowind was my baby. I know, sad isn't it. :shocking:
So a perfect load order is possible, but don't let that objective take over your life. :nono: Try not to end up like me, the guy.

Demonshade:
Good post, points well taken. I have a strategy which I think is going to work this time around. By a process of elimination I think I have come up with a good set of criteria which should enable me to avoid mods which have a possible bug/dirt creating cascading impact on the game and other mods.

I don't think anyone here considers you unworthy of responses. We'd (or at least I would) be a bit more harsh than this if we thought that way. The point of this thread is the to help you create a working (and long) load order, so we're trying our best to do so. Ask your questions, but expect that we will answer with our own opinions prioritized. Answer are not always what you wish to hear, or wish to do. Take our advice or leave it, we're only doing our best to help you out. By no means am I saying "Don't ask questions." Rather, I'm saying, ask questions and don't only listen to the answers you wish to hear.

If the point of this thread is to help you build a working load order, then by all means, ask away. I won't bother you with any more lengthy play testing threads, as it seems your opinion on that is well established.

Also, in regards to MMM, I suggest using the most recent 3.7b3 version installed with http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=24646 omod script. It's very straight forward and should answer ANY questions you have about the plug ins, without being confused by outdated readme's (if there are any. The readme in Arma seemed confusing, but the thread cleared my questions up. The most recent MMM one is perfectly up to date).



Ah, mods. Such nostalgic things. I have to contain myself even now that I only have 140 plug-ins. I don't want to overdo things again, but I still want A LOT of mods. Sad.



Personal experience is often quite useful. ;D



What is this heresy? BLASPHEMY! BLASPHEMY! I SAY!

Now that is my kind of approach! Kudos to on your success with Morrowind.

Though this thread is getting long in the tooth on some points, nevertheless I am getting much better at installing everything and this thread serves to offer insight on what new people will go through in their effort to add mods to the game. I am far more confident now than before, but I made two fatal errors last time which I will not repeat this time around.

Anyways - here goes another install!!

Thanks, but I've "upgraded" to Oblivion now. I just couldn't deal with not having the oblivion physics... Oh well... :shrug: I found morrowind a lot more stable than oblivion... But Oblivion is still very fun. I would suggest installing with BAIN, exept MMM and FCOM convergence, in which you should use OBMM because there's an omod script somewhere on the forums that makes the installation so easy. Nvm, Demonshade already linked. USE THAT SCRIPT!!! And after you download every mod, I suggest http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/TES4Edit_Cleaning_Guide#List_of_Mods_Already_Clean Just do the automated cleaning. It's not to difficult, and once you get used to it you can do it REALLY fast and easilly. It eliminated probably 99% of my CTDs. Its much easier to clean mods as you install them then after you install them.

And I'm doing a lot better since my move to college. I'm not a total nerd any more!!! :woot:

TheNiceOne's installation script has been updated for the latest version of MMM but the FCOM-MMM one has not. I am unsure how to change the install procedure for FCOM in relation to the new MMM version.

Maybe I will wait a while first since it says the new MMM version requires a clean install. I hate to do all this then repeat it.

MMM is an intricate part of FCOM, I am not sure if there is a workaround here at all until an update becomes available.
If anyone knows of one - love to hear it!

The FCOM script is independent of the MMM script. Install MMM, OOO, Frans and WarCry FIRST, then install FCOM with the OMOD script. Then go ahead and add in the FCOM plug-ins that are needed for whatever other mods your doing. As far as I know, the FCOM omod should work with the MMM script due to their independency. TheNiceOne is very particular about keeping his mods up to date, so you shouldn't need to worry about that.

I used the FCOM script and it works fine, since none of the MMM FCOM files are renamed, it doesn't need an update. When you run the MMM omod script, just choose yes when you get asked: "FCOM not detected. Are you going to use FCOM?" or something like that. It works! And I thought you were installing again anyways. All you would have to do for the clean install would be to delete all your current MMM files, then install the new MMM.
Edit: Demonsshade explained it better. Dang! He\She is good with words!

Okay, so just to be clear:

1. Install MMM via the install script by TheNiceOne
2. Then use her script for FCOM

BTW, what a great help those scripts are - kudos to TheNiceOne for his efforts.

I don't mess with OMOD for anything other tnan OBSE plugins and shader mods. And don't recommend it for anyone wishing for an extensive load order. I repackage into a BAIN package - just about the only way to maintain absolute control over all replacers and their relation to all other replacers.

BAIN is the only way to have absolute control over the data files. It is too bad that Wrye's site for how to work with BAIN is down. that blows. My thread has outdated material but the first post and this post might help: http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=957424&view=findpost&p=13910653 Then again now that MMM is all wrapped up in a bsa I suppose it is not as important. Still I know form personal experience the shortcomings of OBMM and how that can be blind when it comes to managing data files.

Ray007- reminder as to what Core said above. MMM is in development for final release - the purpose of that (so you can get the history of it) is so that FCOM can start to go final and be taken out of beta. that is right - FCOM is a beta mod. This is also why Dev_Akm has been missing from the forums and why Shikishima has taken over control of the OOO and FCOM threads - to give him a chance to work on these final revisions.

These mods are not finished. Each new version is at attempt to make more stable the previous version.

The FCOM install guide on Dev's pages is not up to date because there have been changes to MMM that it does not reflect (and I think maybe some to OOO too).

I would say that the newer version of MMM is more stable that the previous - user mileage may vary.

[edit] also I BAINified my FCOM months ago and still rock solid: http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=957424&view=findpost&p=13906324 - I think at that time there was a version of MMM that was BAIN ready which is why that was not covered in that post.

While I agree BAIN has its advantages over OBMM, I view OBMM as more idiot-proof than BAIN. Wrye Bash is an intimidating program for those who are not familiar with it, especially those who are uncertain about what they're doing and just want to play the game. I believe there already is a page on the UESP wiki about OBMM vs. BAIN, so I won't go more in depth. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes4Mod:Wrye_Bash/Bash_vs._OBMM page has more details.

TheNiceOne's scripts are very user friendly, which is why I recommend them to people. BAIN-ready packages are oftentimes more confusing to people. I remember my first look at a BAIN-ready archive (it was COBL, near the end of May, I think) and I was confused as hell. It took me half an hour just to make sure I was getting it right, even with the help of the readme. Admittedly, at the time I was very inexperienced, and I find the use of BAIN much easier nowadays (hell, I just recently reinstalled COBL with BAIN and laughed at myself), but that doesn't mitigate the fact I was utterly lost that first time.

Hence, I generally stick with the "OBMM for the large complicated mods, BAIN for the smaller, script-not-needed mods" mindframe. Of course, the OBMM vs. BAIN debate is pretty evenly divided on this forum. I don't think either feature will win out in the end.

ray007 - Exactly. If you have issues, just come back and we'll help you out.

Dudish - I'm a dude. I know. A picture of some anime chick as my avatar tends to be misleading sometimes.

I agree. The scripts in OBMM also allow for .ini tweaking, which BAIN does not, so for mods such as Oblivion xp and DarnUI this is a must!


Lol, through experience, I have discovered it's best NEVER to assume on the internet

So then those of you who know - realize that creating a BAIN package really is only slightly more complicated that building an OMOD - except that yes ini tweaks, shaders, and OBSE pluggins aren't workable.

Nothing beats if for out and out replacement handling though.

You can easily make ini tweaks of the main oblivion ini - to be somewhat automated with Wrye Bash. In fact somewhere I acquired ini tweaks for Darn UI that are useable with bash. Probably here: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=22170

To be able to see visually what mod replacer is attempting to overwrite what other mod replacer is as useful as looking in tes4edit to see what mod entry is attempting to overwrite what other mod entry. They go hand in hand. And with BAIN you can tweak install order without ever having to reinstall a mod. If you do reinstall it is with a quickness.

Updating them BAIN packages is easy once you've made about 10 you get the hang of it.

But yeah no doubt I use OMODs for what BAIN won't do. The only mod I have that has an ini so sophisticated that I use the OMOD is realistic fatigue. All other ini I tweak by hand.

of course to each their own. The reason I brough this topic here is because Ray007 is set on an extensive load order - and BAIN is the best method for uber installs.