When designing a town i'd like Beth to approach it with the aim of making it functional and believable rather than just a cool looking quest hub before the interesting flourishes are applied. I realise they did this to some extent in OB but i'd like it expanded.

A town needs an industry be it logging, mining, farming, vineyards, quarrying, cattle/sheepkeeping, cloth production even beekeeping or should be there to support an important tactical building like a castle or palace. Both the surrounding area and the town itself should reflect that so farms should be filled with enough crops and animals to look like they could support more than 5 people (in OB it seemed like there wasn't enough farmland to support the people on the farm nevermind the eleventy billion bandits). The town should have the support industries for the area eg. candlemakers, honey makers etc. Skingrad was probably my favourite city in OB for this reason. It looked like it at least had something going on beyond people moving about.

When you go into any small to medium sized town there's usually at least 4-5 stores you can depend on seeing. I'd like Skyrim to do the same. A butcher, a baker, a post office, a bank and some sort of newsagent/general store should be the keystone of any large concenration of people. For tiny towns they can be contracted into one store and large towns maybe even have multiples as well as more specific stores like armourers or enchanted goods.

It may seem excessive and of course we still have to see the engine and what it's capable of but i think this approach will add a lot to the feel of the world and its immersiveness.

Oh and toilets. So many of Oblivion's flaws can be explained away by NPC constipation. Whether there's outhouses or bedpans lets give the poor citizens some relief.


So what other things do you think will improve the feel of the world?

I think more playerbased things as well. For example an inn where you could rent a room for a couple of days. It could be used for temporary strorage among other things.

Also I think things like crravans and carrieges traveling along the roads will add a nice touch [for highwaymen that is].

Cities must be larger. The "cities" in Oblivion was too small to be called cities... not sure if they can even be classified as towns.

I think the cities should be at least 5x the size of what they were in Oblivion. 10x would be more preferable though.

I think such an idea is good. In an open world as TES are, you should feel the world living, with its everyday business. You are first immersed in a game world in TES, rather than in a killing corridor.

I agree 100%. The world needs to be designed in a believable way. Don't have towns or services just exist, have them exist for a reason. Have everything exist for a reason. Adding storage/transport caravans patrolling the roads, as basic as it may be, would add leagues of depth to the world. Small things add up.

If everyone in a town is killed, something should happen. Either random/other NPCs should come and re-populate it over a couple days, it should get over-run by bandits or another faction (turning it into an outdoor dungeon basically), it should become haunted, or it should just waste away gradually, going from abandoned to ruined.

Towns and cities should change subtly a bit too. Maybe a new market stall someplace, a house burns down and gets built anew, a festival, disease, conflict, expansion, etc.

I agree, though 3-5x would be enough for me.


Since Skyrim is set in the place the humans first settled, they should be bigger since you'd expect more sprawl from an ancient population center. The Cities should look old, maybe even parts should be built of monolithic slabs or carved into the mountain... and there should be catacombs.

Market squares in cities. ones that actually LOOK like market places.

have booths for the different goods being sold. and advertisemants - town criers
all of which is effected by:

• weather

• supply

• time of day

• time of month

• season

[vendor kiosks]
The merchant opens his shop early in the morning-preparing first by setting up his stand and bringing out his merchandise.
at about 8am

he puts his sign up and begins to twiddle his thumbs until he sees a worthy customer

he-she should have many things to say and if he sees your ignoring him or he doesn't think you got the cash he will not bother you until you speak to him

one example of something he might say to you if you are wearing the right clothes or have the right personality traits :
"hey you there, would you care for a look at my wares. i have some of the finest imported materials in all the land, and for a good price too"

the towns folk probably just leave the stand for the night, but those from out of town would probably cart it all up for the next week and head for home.
so if persay a wagon of fresh produce were to go missing on the road the people of the town might take a hit to their money and maybe eventually their health.

[criers and advertisers]
people who will walk around handing out scrolls or shouting out the daily sail,
these people would stay on street corners and occasionally give information to a passing npc asking directions or wanting an advertisemant scroll.

maybe one of the merchants could hire you to walk around holding a sign and shouting for a few hours a day.

[citizens from the town and surrounding area]
every day you will see people in the square going about there business purchasing or trading goods.
some of these people should be locals who visit every day or two. and some should be from out of town stocking up on provisions for the next few weeks and setting up little booths of their own to peddle their wares.

this would not just be immersive for the market but for the economy of the towns as well.


i also want to add the fact that these merchants either own or work for someone who runs a smith/apothecary/bookstore/butcher/farm etc.

I want the towns and cities to be more crowded. There was too much open space in the towns of Oblivion and Morrowind (and Daggerfall). Makes it a bit boring. Houses should be packed in there. I also want the environment to come more into play. If it's in a hilly place, then lets have lots of overhangs, lots of staircases, and just make it more vertical in general.

The one thing in Morrowind, that I missed in Oblivion, are the outside kiosks. They make the cities seem much more alive. Would love to see them back. I also want open cities, not cut off and have to load them like in Oblivion. I know that might not be possible depending on what type of engine they use, but that would be a great plus.

I'd like to see farmers markets once a week. Farmers from all around town would have to take horse and trailer with their produce to town.

On that note I'd like to see deliveries to shops, and more manufacture industries.

Tangible reality is something I keep going on about. Its about detail. Where does food come from? Farms. How is it prepared? Well they need to create butchers and other food preparation properties. How is food transported to shops? They need to make farmers make trips once a week to shops to deliver their food.

Cities, and the whole world for that matter, would feel more alive if actual business was taking place.

Guards Thieves Bandits
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KINDA RELATED TO THE POST ABOVE

In the market there is a struggle for the merchants to keep their goods in check, as well as outside the market there are forces that need to be aware of.

• Guards

always out to catch a law breaker, and in some cultures the penalties for stealing were brutal.
loss of limbs, the gallows, prison, the racks.
so in a market where gold and goods are constantly changing hands dont always expect the guard to come to your aid if accused of stealing.
however even though i say this i know that not all guards are bound to their code.
guards may be bought off. not just by you, but by merchants or guilds or other organizations.
they should also be investigating constantly against the thieves and bandits.

• Thieves

if your a thief there are plenty of opportunities in the market to make a quick fortune.
sneaking the key to the lock-box when the merchant is busy.[been here before]
but you shouldn't be the only one out there. and remember that saying "no honor among thieves"
well remember it, because you might end up the scapegoat or the fall-guy.
what i mean by that is that you are not the only one trying to filch there way to lunch. and if someone can make YOU into the distraction they just might pin you with a crime you had not done[yet] THEY WILL....unless your thieves guild...and even then.
also you might want to be careful of a crowd. you never know when that coin-purse may go missing

• Bandits

in a bustling market town there will always be traffic of goods. goods unprotected on the road may suffer a visit from these fine fellows.
this one is self explanatory. we have seen plenty of these guys for a lifetime back in oblivion- but if we have to see them again make them more interesting and less "pay me gold or die"
alot of bandits would have planned ahead for their caravan/cart ambush.
also i think they should be more prone to violence and [grand theft horse] XD
i say they should be a constant threat to trade and the economy of a town. and that you should have the opportunity to join them

It would be cool if the towns start to look more beatiful and getting bigger if you spend much money in that town and crimesprees should do the opposite :flamethrower:

If you steal from the town hall [where all the taxes are kept] the city gets shabbier, the guards equipment gets worse, etc.

Each town should have a minijail for lesser crimes which if you attack you can free the criminals.

Killing the guards should create crime sprees.

Npcs should be able to have children which slowly repopulte after killing sprees.

Buildings should be destroyable but will slowly be rebuilt if owned by an npc or player. If a city gets destroyed repeatedly the npcs should move to another town.

Killing an npc should set off an auction for his property.

Destroying npcs shops would set the npc into debt setting off an auction to repay his debts.

You shoulod be able to bribe guards and other officials.

FO3 demonstrated some direction foreword with commerce and immersion and I agree 'some' things would be desirable.

Outhouses - FO3 had them although it was infinitely disturbing to walk by a little girl sitting in an outhouse in the Kingdom of Dave. :shakehead:

Commerce - FO3 removed the 'fence stolen item' and item type requirements and vendors would readily buy about anything from you whether it was stolen or not and regardless of whether they typically sold similar items (ex a weapon vendor would still buy chems, food, etc.). That makes sense to me but I could live with some old restrictions. Vendor money also fluctuated unlike OB and their 'inventory' was mostly lootable. Again unlike OB.

What we've never really seen is real infrastucture but I'm not sure I'd expect BGS to go to extremes here. Do you really want government, courts, taxes, sanitation workers, doctors, etc?

Perhaps not functioning but yeah a town should have a hierarchy and some form of healer, courts would something based on the size of the town. Going to the extreme of literally having NPCs dealing with other NPC's excretions would be going further than necessary imo

I'm not expecting something where an entire economy is actually simulated although the descriptions in this thread (especially what Senju wrote) sound like they'd be amazing to have in a game. A believable fascimile would be enough to increase the quality of the world and make it both a more believable and enjoyable place to explore. Make the calculations required for it too complex and the game wouldn't be able to run so it's more about the appearance of these things happening rather than actually.

I'd just like to see Beth's world creation philosophy to go along those lines rather than the one that led to the plonking down a cave because it's a good 50 yards since the last ruined fort.

I would love to se robbers and shady characters in certain parts of the towns/city's. They can hang out or hide on street corners or dark side streets, making traveling dangerous att night. Would also love if there was criminal taverns, Robbers Den or something xD Apart from this I think the Topic starter added most things.

that...thats brilliant. i have to say that would be REALLY cool.
stalkers guild!

I want cities to be huge and alive.
I want people everywhere, like in assassin's creed. I don't care if they are named or not, as there will be named quest givers and other named characters.
The town should also have an economy and villagers should care for themselves. For example, buy food if their farms get burned down and complain about it.

Well... I can dream anyway.

I would like an improved AI schedule system.

- Get rid of that stupid eating animation. Who on earth eats a measly crust of bread (with a bit of paté, it seems) for a meal? It's a snack. I would settle for a knife and fork animation, even if there was no plate.

- Have it so NPCs actually use up item supplies and go out to replenish them. NPCs use a paper item (destroy it, remove from the world, essentially), accompanied by a nice writing animation, or perhaps they feed their hound with meat, or cook meals with other ingredients. When an NPC identifies that it has run out of a particular resource, or that it is about to run out, they add it to a 'list'. All the items on the list are bought from the shop at the particular time-of-day the NPC has for 'shopping'. They might go for less-pleasing alternatives if supplies are low.

- New activities I want: writing letters, reading books (WHILE SITTING DOWN, maybe if they can't find a chair they'll suffice for standing up, but who really stands up and reads?), feeding pets/horses (although on another note, I'd prefer less familiar animals such as horses and dogs, and more guars and nix-hounds), eating meals with the family (whether there are children is another question).

- Less rigid animations. Nobody ever looks tired or excited. For example, they always sit bolt upright. Perhaps they could slouch, or just sit on the edge. Same for the walking animation. The people in Oblivion were terrifically stale.

well cities should be larger and more lively.

here is a hint for the development team..... GET UP and walk around in a city, you will get the general idea.

I like the stuff you all have been saying about the towns. I have a couple things to add.

There needs to be a stronger sense of history about the places. A new part of town somewhere with scorch marks on the city walls from the fire a decade ago which only got one neighborhood. The old stone trading outpost, which was the first building ever constructed in the town during the settlement days. The famous corner where the king knighted the local peasant hero. Also in the wake of the Oblivion crisis, many buildings need to look like they took parts from other buildings. That imperial courthouse was damaged during the fighting? A local noble might take part of the facade and put it on his house. Poorer people might have stolen the marble fireplace.

I would like to see....

*Diverse characters living in diverse houses.

*Many small settlements that straddle main roads, so that you actually walk through settlements, stopping to stock up on supplies, on your way to X location.

*Street vendors

*More diverse architecture, not the same few houses retextured over and over. Also more architectural diversity in towns. Not just one type of architecture throughout the entire town. A bit of mixture would give more character. That is something I need to do in my own town mods, I know.

*Interesting layouts: towns built on differing levels, towns that actually make use of the landscape. So the town isn't just plonked flat, but rather built to conform to the landscape it is set in. Don't chop the hill away to plonk a town, build the town around and up the hill.

*Dark alleys, backstreet characters.

*Street signs, so every street has a name. Not a big thing to do, but makes a big difference.

*Better decor that adds character.

*Villages that comprise at least 6 buildings, towns that have minimum of 15 - 20 and cities that are actualy cities, not towns. ~I would consider all the 'cities' of Oblivion except the Imperial City, actually towns.

All this said, it is extremely time consuming to make towns and really put detail in them so we can't expect too much. For me the best town Beth made for Oblivion was Shivering Isles' Bliss and Crucible. Love those places! For Morrowind I loved Suran best.

oh yah and baths.

and swimming pools with hot half naked slaves playing in them as their lord sits on a huge wooden chair eating graqes or something, for crying out loud its a F.A.N.T.A.S.Y game we should have lords of debauchery, and master thieves, and nerdy clerks, and rude barbarians, and snobby elves, and slaves, and children, and street paupers and stuff!!!!

did I say baths.....

and kitchens, people eat for God's sake.

i really like your ideas, especiallyfor a practical design. a city would take advantage of its available resources and the geography of the land.
bruma did the best job of this, but failed to wow me..i blame the population cap [issues with ai]. after bruma i would pick...Balmora. the houses are made from the resources and the architecture is SOLID, it also on a great trade rout.

But there were some citys that should have been better.
im going to take Bravil for an example. a city that should have had alot more going for it than it seemed in the game.

if cyrodil was realized on a larger scale then bravil would have been bigger, and because of its location i think it should have been built on layers.

the castle should have been southwest of its current location.
it might have had a heavy built up stone foundation to keep the flood out.
the layer below would be of the same kind of foundation but would wrap around the castle walls. this would support the upper-class homes and a few guard towers.
the next layer would have been like stilt homes in coastal areas for middle/lower class depending on where in this area the home is placed.
and finally the shops and dock. this would be the bustling market and the main road would run directly through this part of the town through the 2 gates.