I did mean to say for the NPC not the player. My bad on that.

But I still like the Unarmed and melee fighting in the originals better.

Probably why they agreed to what Benny contracted them for.

Not probably. Its definently the reason. Benny promised alot of caps, and even though they could barely beleave it, they said yes. Probably thought that Benny would have stabbed them in the back, but i dont think they had a choice but to accept.

I personally agree that the Legion using the Roman Empire as an "inspiration" was rather ridiculous, both in terms of lore and game design. Their attempts to emulate roman lorica segmentata armor are just silly (football pads?) and while they may not "hate technology" they certainly shun it because they believe it to be a corrupting influence. Its a belief that the Roman Empire never would have subscribed to given its tendency to be as technologically advanced over its enemies as possible.


Save for the fact that Caesar does little to emulate the actual culture of Rome. He instead gets hung up on 1. the military culture, 2. the strong dictatorship as well as 3. slavery: which he takes above and beyond what existed in Rome. Besides none of these are unique to Rome in any way. The idea of having the Legion represent the "Rome" of the wastes simply isn't necessary or correct. "Yay they sort of look like Roman Soldiers, and they occasionally can speak some Latin." Its Roman culture!

The idea of "emulating Rome by uniting fractured tribes" is also a falsity if Caesar is trying to emulate that. Rome didn't bring civilization to a bunch of unwashed barbarians, it conquered groups of people with their own method of civilization, culture, and way of life. Their conquest and expansion was not needed by any means. Rome also has not been the only nation to unite various peoples into an Empire. The Persians, Egyptians, Arabs, Chinese and others all lay claim to that distinction.

Because the Romans had a strong, influential, warrior-like history which could unite dozens of tribes into a powerful empire. He would have to develope his own culture if he did not mimic the Roman Empire which would've required weeks to months of thinking and detailing which could've been spent expanding his empire.

They rarely use unarmed combat; they mostly rely on machetes and spears which were common in pre-Legion Arizona so there wasn't the issue of making a ton of them.

They are against the idea of relying on guns like the NCR does. If a gun jams for a NCR soldier they have to retreat or be killed. For a legion soldier all they have to do is drop the gun, pull out a machete, and keep fighting.


The Khans were just a band of raiders who become less about raiding and killing and more about surviving after two near destructions at the hands of the Vault Dweller (Fallout 1 protagonist) and the Chosen One (Fallout 2 protagonist).

They aren't evil, they were hired to help Benny rob a courier which isn't a big deal for them.

You may have your opinions but questioning the very reason for these factions' existence?

Why have the NCR? There are enough real life democracies. Why have the Brotherhood of Steel? All they do is steal technology and complain when people fight back. Why have the Followers of the Apocalypse? Humanity doesn't deserve their kindness.

We could go back and forth with this forever.

Okay so if your choice was to starve to death (and the Khans would definitely not die out if they gave up supplying the Fiends with chems at worst they would have to disband or move onto an NCR reservation) or help a guy you know to be a sadistic murderer and rapist continue his excesses which would you pick? And if you did pick the latter are you really going to claim it doesn't make you an awful human being?

You profligate!

Well I live in Canada in the year 2012 with no impending threat to my life so I can't say that the question has come up. I'm personally not saying that the Great Khans are good or bad because those are very simplistic terms to place on people. They are doing what they know how to do in order to not only survive in post-apocalyptic Nevada in the year 2281, but also keep their identity as a tribe. I also think that the Fiends are one of the main reasons why the NCR aren't doing as well as they could be doing against the Legion. Whether or not that's a justifiable reason for the Great Khans is up to them and whether or not supplying chems to dangerous junkies is a morally bad choice is beside the point.

So if you've never been a situation you can't even decide what would be the right and wrong course of action? You really think it wouldn't be morally wrong to assist in killing and harming innocent people to ensure your own survival? I'm not asking you to decide how you might act in that situation, no one knows that I'm simply asking you to determine whether that's ethical or not.

I really don't see how there's even a question that supplying chems to deranged junkies who [censored], torture and murder innocent people is morally bad. The Khans are raiders, they've always been a faction that has lived by looting and attacking anyone weaker than them. Bitter Springs doesn't change the fact that the Khans, like most factions in the Mojave, are not a decent bunch of people on the whole.

I honestly find the whole concept pretty far-fetched based merely on the timeline we're given. Caesar founded the Legion less than 40 years before the events of New Vegas and yet a society based solely on constant warfare and through the brainwashing of its population, has the logistics and population to survive.

The Legion is made up of a 1st generation of soldiers who can easily remember a time before the legion, and a totally assimilated, brainwashed 2nd generation and that's it. Idk, it'd have been way more believable if the Legion was much older, the current Caesar being the son of the original or something.

Also Andronicus is right... the Legion is HARDLY Roman, save aesthetics and a few Latin words and phrases/

Well, what would they use other than football pads? Resources are scarce in the wasteland, and I think they did a decent job of emulating Roman armor considering what they had to work with (not to mention they had to attempt to make it somewhat bullet proof). While the Romans would have embraced new technology, Caesar isn't trying to mimic every single thing the Romans did. He just used the basic premises of Roman military structure, culture, and ideas to form a new "empire" that could thrive in the post apocalyptic world.


If the Legion were to be exactly like Rome in every way, it wouldn't be practical. Caesar isn't an idiot, he knows that the Roman empire eventually crumbled and that emulating an ancient society in every way possible would only lead to disaster in a world with different technology, more advanced education (in some places at least), different types of adversaries (the NCR, Mr. House), and a tactically different situation (Caesar is essentially leading a massive, nomadic army that doesn't even have its "Rome" yet).


Of course the strategy of "conquer, destroy, assimilate" wasn't some original idea thought up by the Romans, but its use being prevalent in many cultures across the world only proves that it was a successful military strategy for building a massive nation/empire.

1. Of course its not ethical, but the Great Khans don't really care about ethics and morality when it comes to the survival of their very identity.

2. I never questioned whether or not it was morally bad, I said that it was beside the point. I agree that the Great Khans are not nice people, but what is your point in all this?

To be honest, my point was more of a critique of Obsidian's decision to make the Legion "the Romans" rather than criticizing Caesar's ideas in-lore. I simply don't see the need for the Legion to have been supposedly based off of ancient Rome when in reality they emulate Rome in absolutely no way but the use of latin terms and some look of Imperial Legion attire (which I still believe they look foolish in).

My point is, why have a faction that dresses in football pads to make-believe that they are Romans, when it would have been more believable and likely just as poignant to have a faction which does exactly as the Legion does, but has its own culture and its own way of life in which it doesn't fail at emulating another? The whole "we are legion" theme is just completely unnecessary.


But how did he even do that? He calls some of his commanders Roman military titles, he forms a dictatorial government and builds something of a cult of personality as the real Caesar did but ultimately he doesn't even emulate the basic premise in any unique way. I see nothing which replicates Rome in the Legion's actions other than "they have something of a good military and a strong military culture," which again, isn't unique to Rome at all. Granted, like you said, he can't truly replicate Rome in Fallout's world, but then why even try?

My point is, other than pretending to dress up like Romans, using some Latin names and titles, and having a strong military culture (as well as slavery) how is the Legion representing Rome at all? From what I can see, Caesar might as well have taken a handbook of Empire from the Parthians or the Sassinids or any group of people which shares the characteristics he used to "form his empire" and it would look no different.

I agree. Play and understand the game before you make stupid accusations.

Right so why did people start disputing my characterization of the Khans as a fairly awful group of people when you actually look at why they're in the situation they're in.


That was my point that you just agreed with. I simply stated that far from just being people trying to survive after getting [censored] over by the NCR they [censored] themselves over and are raiders and suppliers of one of the most vicious groups in the Mojave. In other words the Great Khans are a pretty awful bunch who brought their fate on themselves. People disputed this for some reason.

The reason why they are in the situation they are in is because they refused Mr. House's offer to become his enforcers. House recognized them as the greatest immediate threat to his New Vegas so he used the three gangs who did join him to push the Great Khans out of the Vegas area. They started harassing the NCR because of their long standing animosity with them until the NCR annihilated Bitter Springs.

Perhaps they are responsible for their own downfall, but they are still a very interesting faction that I would like to see more of in a future game. Also, the reason why I first replied to you was to explain the main reason why they supply the Fiends with chems, the moral dilemma didn't enter into it.

The military structure of the Legion is copied from imperial Rome. Cohorts, Centuria, Contubernia, et cetera -- all based on the Roman Military structure. When Phoenix says that he has two Contubernia at his command, we know that he means he has roughly 16 legionaries and 4 slaves/reserve troops at his command because of what the Roman Contubernium consisted of, and that is 8 legionaries and two reserve troops/pack mule type men.

Praetorians are Caesar's elite guards, just as they were the elite guards of Roman emperors. In fact, every title in the Legion -- Centurian, Decanus, Frumentarius, Legatus, et cetera is copied right from ancient Rome and they lead the same group of men, a Decanus leads a Contubernium in the Legion, and they led Contuberia in Imperial Rome as one example.

The Legion's military tactics are also derived from the Romans, with the first wave being recruit legionaries, the second being Primes, and the third being Veterans. This was taken from earlier in Roman history during the time of the Manipular Legion, when the weakest soldiers known as Hastati were the first wave, then following them were semi-experienced military men known as principes, and then following them in the third wave were the veteran, experienced troops known as triarii.

So Ceasar combined different military characteristics from different periods in Rome's military history to create an army that he deemed applicable to fighting in the post-apocalyptic world. The structure of Legion>Cohort>Centuria>Contubernia was from later in Rome's history than when they organized their soldiers into the three wave attack of Hastati, principes, triarii. But Caesar only did that because his army isn't large enough to fit with the organization that went along with the Legion, Cohort, Centuria model, where in ancient Rome each Cohort was essentially a wave in the attack -- the first being the weakest and the last being made of the strongest veterans. It was this way in the hastati, principes, triarii structure as well in ancient Rome, but Caesar (in New Vegas) was able to boil that strategy down to having individual contuberium act as the different "waves."

I agree. I'd love to see what shape their new empire takes if you get the good ending for them.

Well I'll admit Tycho, perhaps I was wrong concerning the lack of similarities between the Legion's military structure and that of ancient Rome. It's been awhile since I have played New Vegas and I had quite frankly forgotten (for instance) that Phoenix refers to Contubernia. In fact, I was under the impression that Caesar just used the term Cohorts to refer to groups of men. I didn't believe their military structure was organized along the lines of ancient Rome much past that.

You've made some very excellent points here. Perhaps a good explanation and reminder as to the similarities was what I needed.


I didn't actually make the connection between the pre-Marian Republican Legion formation and how Caesar deploy's his forces. Is there indeed indication that he uses the hastati/principes/triarii deployment? Obviously in practice one doesn't see it because you can have Veterans attacking before recruits and such, but this is simply a result of game mechanics. So my question is of course based more in lore.


Certainly makes sense to me.

because where there's a army there is a rebellion and Caesar legion is that rebellion if your on there side if your on NCR there enemy's everything has a match to go against and a person who does not agree with what your doing that what I think in my opinion properly not what your looking.

Yes, they are supplieng a band of drug addicts, and its kinda the Khans foult that they are drug addicts, but what can they do? can they move on, which they kinda do in many endings? well that is a big risk, and they will (probably) take that eventually, but they kinda are just common drug dealers, mercinaries, tribal and raiders that are trying to survive. I would give them neutral karma, not completely bad, cause they aint like the Legion, they are better then them atleast.

In fact I would argue that unarmed is kinda overpowered. In my experience unarmed is difficult until you get your first power fist. Then it's pretty much permanent Leeroy Jenkins mode, since bullets are not all that lethal that you can't close the distance, usually. I didn't have to use many drugs for unarmed-reliant characters - I would say that the only thing other than character build that is needed is a sense of timing - for ranger takedown particularly, since you have to go backwards to use that power attack.

Agreed - I think Sallow simply uses the Roman thing as a means of social control - what better way to forge a society out of many disparate tribes than to introduce a new language (I know, Latin is really old, but it was a dead language even before the Great War - Arcade excepted)? It would probably have been more realistic had Sallow borrowed from many bits and pieces of ritual from other historical societies, but he probably had a small reference pool - maybe only books on Rome survived the apocalypse.

I'm vilified by Ceasers "Salad" (Get it?) and several other factions,including NCR,The great Khans and The brotherhood of Steel! LOL.

Ima go with this one, but yeah Caesars Legion does go the extra mile for authenticity. Obviously maybe a little too far for the Fallout universe but heck, Caesar could do whatever he wanted the way he was building his empire.

If I was a man and decided to create my own nation, I would base it off of the Roman empire as well. It was a pretty awesome empire until the crappy leaders took over.