Caesar's Legion vs. The Midwestern Brotherhood

Post » Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:28 pm

Honestly, with a few tweaks, Caesar might have been an interesting alternative to the NCR. Low Tech versus High Tech makes a certain degree more sense when trying to establish a society (especially if the radiation will potentially last thousands of years - you can afford to be patient in establishing widespread agrarian/ranch and so on lifestyles). Likewise, there's something to be said for totalitarianism when you're nation building. Part of the reason Christianity was embraced by so many pagan rulers post the Fall of the Roman Empire was due to the fact that it nicely served as a unifying factor.

Caesar's fundamental misogyny will ultimately bite him in the butt, disenfranchising 50% of your labor force and creating a culture of rapine and plunder is a stupid way of empire-building. You want your soldiers to settle down and BUILD after all and there's no reason that Caesar should want women as breeding stock since the chief concern should be RESOURCES above population.

Likewise, encouraging your rulers of a Neo-Rome to be gourmet cannibals while looking the other way? It's just, ugh, Caesar really dropped the ball in a lot of places. He's created a Sparta/Hun force more than a Rome.

However, we're going to be able to test the effectiveness of Caesar's Legion more than anything by putting it up against its greatest threat. Not, as you might expect, NCR (which [SPEECH 100] the Legion military would destroy itself conquering), but the Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel. According to Fallout 3, it isn't perhaps as large and widespread as some of its endings might have suggested but it certainly seems to be powerful enough to be a force worth recknoning with.

Even more importantly, it's just as likely to serve as the opponent Caesar never saw coming.

Really, Caesar's Legion is a nice little way of explaining why the Brotherhood of Steel on the West Coast never really got in touch with our brothers in Washington D.C. or the Cheyenne Mountain area. Any brothers would have to effectively walk through two to three states worth of Legion controlled territory, of which the Hoover dam force is only a fairly mild portion of. Still, the MW Brotherhood is undoubtedly going to be aware of them eventually - they're right on their doorstep after all.

The question will be, who will win?

In the case of Caesar's Legion; they still have a supremely physical force. Like NCR, they undoubtedly will have numbers on the MWBOS. However, unlike NCR, they actively disdain technology and revert to melee weapons very often. This will be a grave disadvantage against the Brotherhood's ultra-high tech advantage.
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Emmi Coolahan
 
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Post » Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:17 pm

If the rules of PA honors the lore then MWBOS.
Legion has been able to take on chapters of BOS.
Not an entire army of them including deathclaws, super mutants and ghouls all with their own qualities to bring to the table.
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danni Marchant
 
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Post » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:13 am

If the rules of PA honors the lore then MWBOS.
Legion has been able to take on chapters of BOS.
Not an entire army of them including deathclaws, super mutants and ghouls all with their own qualities to bring to the table.


I think we're meant to go with the "Calculator is destroyed" ending, which is GOOD for the Brotherhood (having Vault-Zero is a pretty damn good thing in and of itself) but not so much they could singlehandedly rebuild the entirety of the Wasteland by themselves.

Of course, Deathclaws, Ghouls, and Super Mutants don't necessarilly mean they'll triumph.

NCR has ghouls (one of the Ranger stations has massive numbers of ghouls in uniform) and the Enclave had Deathclaws - both of which didn't mean much in the long run.

The Super Mutants are, to an extent, also a very very very vanishingly thin resource.
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Cameron Garrod
 
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Post » Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:42 pm

OMG "ALL MINE" If mid west bos still recruits they have to be huge. They are more than likely not nice. They have cannon fodder backed by strait up walking tanks with advanced pa mkll.

CL better not even go there unless the mid west bos crumbled.

If they have not crumbled and countined on the path they were on they may be the most powerful group in the U.S.

They have been there a long time.

Sad thing is there were 27 endings so cl might walk there and find very little of mid west bos.

If they are there with a giant bos trained cannon fodder army backed by at least hundreds of walking tanks cl should not even engage.

This is not ncr............ Its a bos chapter that grew a brain.
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Amy Melissa
 
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Post » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:05 am

I can't see the legion beating the MWBOS under any of their endings... The Legion is too techno-phobic, whereas the MWBOS aren't afraid to use it.
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Rachel Briere
 
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Post » Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:09 pm

I can't see the legion beating the MWBOS under any of their endings... The Legion is too techno-phobic, whereas the MWBOS aren't afraid to use it.


I honestly think it depends on how much of a hypocrite Caesar is (or Lanius or Lucius or Vulpes or whoever depending on who the Courier kills). For the sake of this argument, let's say that Caesar is still in-charge or someone equally talented in terms of either reason or military prowess. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Honest Hearts doesn't end with Joshua Graham back in charge as a potentiality.

But yes, my point is that Caesar's Legion is technophobic only to the point that Caesar thinks it benefits his people. Hell, he may only be technophobic because his army is made of superstitious tribals he's trying to convince he's a god. Education doesn't really serve the purpose of keeping his cult of personality intact.

He arms his Centurions and other soldiers with plenty of extremely potent guns and the only reason he doesn't have energy weapons is due to the Van Graffs being double-crossing snakes (and the smarter for it given how the Legion treats their allies).

It's clear that the Legion makes use of technology as much as it benefits them militarily. The only place I think Caesar may be shooting himself in the foot is his disdain of medicine. An army without Stimpacks seems like it would seriously shoot itself in the foot (then again, Caesar really doesn't have any use for maimed and I've found a few Stimpacks on dead Legionaires anyway). Even then, the lack of Doctors may be enough to cost Caesar in the long run as infection and so on wipe them out.

The real question is how much of the MBOS will be able to be outfitted with its power armor and so on given it's status as "recruiting." They still don't have any new suits of PA.
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Isabella X
 
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Post » Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:55 pm

i have no clue..but if we are going back to chicago i would like to see it..but i don;t think CL would have gotten that far north....it seemed like ceaser being at the fort meant his attention was placed on the ncr.....just saying..i have no idea on the subject..but if i get to play it dam i'd be excited :)
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Sammygirl
 
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Post » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:46 am

i have no clue..but if we are going back to chicago i would like to see it..but i don;t think CL would have gotten that far north....it seemed like ceaser being at the fort meant his attention was placed on the ncr.....just saying..i have no idea on the subject..but if i get to play it dam i'd be excited :)


I'd love to play a DLC or a full-on game of.

But yes, I think its possible Caesar's Legion may choose to start expanding into the East with the Mojave and NCR becoming so unpleasant. Depending on how much resistance they meet, they could become even more dangerous by the time they reach the MWBOS. Actually, I'm interested in who takes over the Legion if Lanius and Caesar are both killed.

(Obviously not Vulpes or Lucius in my world)

It could be someone more progressive in certain areas - and harsher in others.
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Rude_Bitch_420
 
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Post » Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:48 pm

Out of all the endings to Tactics, I can't see any that would reduce the Midwestern Brotherhood to a small pathetic group outside Chicago. I do see one Ending that causes their down fall, as in stops their expansion and causes them to fall back to strongholds across the Midwestern United States. Vault Zero being one of them. This Ending is the Barnaky Ending. It is also the only ending that gives us the "Mutant Liberation Army."

Bethesda has made the MWBoS canon but has not settled on a canon ending to Tactics (if they will pick one.) All the Endings but for when the Calculator being destroyed results with them taking control of the Calculators armies. This does not mean they can't control the robots if they let the calculator fail. There is a squad mate in Tactics you can get. Its a humanoid robot that was "Liberated" from the Calculator.

I don't think Legion squads can go up against a http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Behemoth_(robot). Midwestern BoS also make use of vehicles. So I would have to go with the Midwestern Brotherhood.

I can't see the MWBoS destroying the Legion but I am sure they can win a defensive war if need be.
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Pixie
 
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Post » Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:22 pm

Talk in game made it seem like CL had a much bigger slave army than was present in NV. Still, I dont think thy would stand a chance against the MWBoS.
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Elena Alina
 
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Post » Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:56 am

Going off of Styles point, what about the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Hellion, supposing the MWBoS could possibly get this baby back up to working condition they would be very ownage. Also the Calculator AI likely has access to pre war industrial designs, MWBoS factories could easily try to reproduce pre war weaponry, ala tanks, and humvees and Vertibirds with this knowledge. That is of course if all goes well, as they have fallen on hard times.
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SUck MYdIck
 
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Post » Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:30 pm

The Midwestern Brothehood would be the most powerful faction in the wasteland. Since Fallout Tactics which takes place before Fallout 2. They had several decades to become even more powerful. Still we have to go with what Bethesda has mentioned "Fallen on Hard Times." Since there is no mention of them in New Vegas we have to assume they never made contact with the "original knowledge hoarding Brotherhood of Steel."

I just hope if Bethesda does something with them they don't make them nothing but a small group in Chicago.
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Brιonα Renae
 
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Post » Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:09 am

The Midwestern Brothehood would be the most powerful faction in the wasteland. Since Fallout Tactics which takes place before Fallout 2. They had several decades to become even more powerful. Still we have to go with what Bethesda has mentioned "Fallen on Hard Times." Since there is no mention of them in New Vegas we have to assume they never made contact with the "original knowledge hoarding Brotherhood of Steel."

I just hope if Bethesda does something with them they don't make them nothing but a small group in Chicago.


Thay had better not :verymad:
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Max Van Morrison
 
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Post » Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:58 pm

I cant see Caesars Legion really being able to do anything against the MBoS, I mean the Remnants tore a path through them after the battle at the dam and there were only a handfull of them, imagine what a whole army could do.
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Matt Bigelow
 
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Post » Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:59 am

Out of all the endings to Tactics, I can't see any that would reduce the Midwestern Brotherhood to a small pathetic group outside Chicago. I do see one Ending that causes their down fall, as in stops their expansion and causes them to fall back to strongholds across the Midwestern United States. Vault Zero being one of them. This Ending is the Barnaky Ending. It is also the only ending that gives us the "Mutant Liberation Army."


The description given by Elder Lyons and company indicates that the MBOS is something that's not a vast empire either. I think they're quite likely sitting pretty but it's also entirely possible that their armies aren't going to be steadily growing either. It's been a long time since the period of Tactics and they haven't reached the Capital Wasteland or the East Coast nor have they reached Caesar's borders, so obviously something halted their advance.

I'm inclined to think the group is probably a strong power but Calculator's armies probably wouldn't be taken over, maybe reprogrammed on an individual level. Calculator being destroyed seems the most likely "canon" ending.

Talk in game made it seem like CL had a much bigger slave army than was present in NV. Still, I dont think thy would stand a chance against the MWBoS.


Caesar's Legion also makes excellent use of spies and saboteurs, though. It would be interesting to see how the BOS would react if it was inifiltrated.

Going off of Styles point, what about the Hellion, supposing the MWBoS could possibly get this baby back up to working condition they would be very ownage. Also the Calculator AI likely has access to pre war industrial designs, MWBoS factories could easily try to reproduce pre war weaponry, ala tanks, and humvees and Vertibirds with this knowledge. That is of course if all goes well, as they have fallen on hard times.


The question of knowing how to produce things versus being able to do it has long been an issue in Fallout. The BOS probably has plenty of knowledge about how to make planes and so on, just lacks the industry to do it.

I just hope if Bethesda does something with them they don't make them nothing but a small group in Chicago.


I'd like to see them as essentially about as large as the former Maxson group, probably as powerful as the original BOS. They're not a NCR-style massive democracy but maybe a small nation that possibly controls most of Illinois.

Seeing them at war with the Enclave might be good.
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Nikki Hype
 
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Post » Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:36 pm

Caesar's Legion also makes excellent use of spies and saboteurs, though. It would be interesting to see how the BOS would react if it was inifiltrated.

With the MWBOS... That would be amusing to say the least.
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Sarah Knight
 
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Post » Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:34 pm

With the MWBOS... That would be amusing to say the least.


Given the power they wield and the fact they recruit, amusing isn't the word I'd use for it. The potential for devastation and corruption is overwhelming.
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Rob Davidson
 
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Post » Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:55 pm

Given the power they wield and the fact they recruit, amusing isn't the word I'd use for it. The potential for devastation and corruption is overwhelming.

Its more their reaction that I think will be "fun". They're not exactly known for their use of the velvet glove.
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XPidgex Jefferson
 
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Post » Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:04 pm

The description given by Elder Lyons and company indicates that the MBOS is something that's not a vast empire either. I


It was not Lyons that mentions them. Really the only Mention of the Midwestern Brotherood comes from Rothschild. Simply says "They have fallen on hard times."

We don't know how they know this. My theory is simple. Lyon's mission was to go to DC, find tech. Scout out new super mutants and try to find out about the MWBoS. This would mean people at Lost Hills heared nothing from them since they set off in the airships.

Now here is my theory. Midwestern Brotherhood worried that Lyons was the head of a brotherhood army. They avoided Lyons as much as they could. Lyons not giving up gets to close to one of the MWBoS strongholds. So they send out a group of their own elders to make contact with Lyons. They findout Lyons is not apart of a larger army but still has contact with the West. So they tell Lyons that their numbers are few. Make up alot of bull crap. Lyons satisfied that he has accomplished that part of his mission and eager to get to DC; makes note of the MWBoS and moves on.
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Undisclosed Desires
 
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Post » Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:45 pm

I don't think that's the way they're going to go with it.

I'm inclined to think that we should just take it what it is.

That way, they can be rescued from whatever bad has happened to them in a future Fallout game.
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Jessica Lloyd
 
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Post » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:21 am

BTW, given Caesar's Legion has 3 states worth of followers, is it POSSIBLE for the Brotherhood to oppose them?

Wouldn't they just get rolled over?
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Dona BlackHeart
 
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Post » Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:56 am

BTW, given Caesar's Legion has 3 states worth of followers, is it POSSIBLE for the Brotherhood to oppose them?

Wouldn't they just get rolled over?


The MWBOS is much bigger, stretching from Chicargo to Mount Chyenne. They Openly recruit (read: Conscript) people from the towns under their protection and include Ghouls, Supermutants, Deathclaws and potentially Robots amongst their ranks.

They also have no problem with using weapons of mass distraction.
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Damien Mulvenna
 
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Post » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:33 am

The MWBOS is much bigger, stretching from Chicargo to Mount Cheyenne. They Openly recruit (read: Conscript) people from the towns under their protection and include Ghouls, Supermutants, Deathclaws and potentially Robots amongst their ranks.

They also have no problem with using weapons of mass distraction.


I don't know if that would work out for them in the long run ironically. If it really stretches from Chicago to Wyoming then pretty much the Brotherhood can't have any significant presence in any of the communities it has. California is one of the largest and most populated places in the Fallout universe (if not THE largest) and the travel times between its locations are TREMENDOUS without railroads. Even the relatively short distance between the Mojave and California is something that virtually cripples the organization and NCR is probably the most powerful organization in the Fallout universe.

If it really controls that much territory then Caesar's Legion would just roll over them.

I am curious, however, about the role of the MBOS though since the Great Khans build a "great empire" in Wyoming with the assistance of the Followers of the Apocalypse. I wonder if the Great Khans defeated the Brotherhood or if they've withdrawn from Cheyenne mountain for some reason.
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Liii BLATES
 
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Post » Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:17 am

We can't really say that the MWBoS is stretched thin, though, can we?
If they have a presence in every small town between cheyanne and chicago, then i am gonna say theyd be pretty tough to make it through.
considering those locals would know the terrain better than a group of low tech slaves who are fighting because they are forced to.
The MWBoS recruits are defending their lands.. that gives them heart.
Also the fact that the MWBoS is recruiting practically every able bodied person in that large reigion into their ranks, it means that there isnt really anyone for Ceasers Leigion to add to their ranks as they are depleated.

You mention how difficult it is to travel great distances without rails.. imagine the forefornt of the CL getting trounced by the MWBoS, which they have practically no data on and sending for more re-enforcements. it would take forever.
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josie treuberg
 
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Post » Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:12 am

I love Caesars Legion and despise the Midwest BOS but they would defeat Caesars Legion.
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Reven Lord
 
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