Nope . That's why I said there's bound to be exceptions, among them the centurion that's part of that quest. Really fun quest though and it introduced a side of the Legion's general mentality that was previously unknown to me.

Depends on the situations?

Oh my god.. Ok.. You compared what Lanius said to what Caesar said, thats all you did.. The only reason you get to actually hear Lanius's 'speech' is because you choose to divert from the setout CL plan and do something else... ie let Caesar die.. This is the only thing that these CL or more to the point 'Lanius' supporters seem to be able to bring to the table. Ignoring the fact that Caesar is infact the main protagonist in nv, regardless of whether or not Lanius is the final encounter, he is only there because Caesar made a Legion in the first place, yet you dismiss his words or simply says, "nah, he's lying."

Though to add, suicide is sometimes a better option than being captured and exposing vital intelligence to an opponents side which in turn would kill the majority involved.




Yes, because he most likely is lying.

Is it a fact that Lanius's face is intact? Yes.

Is it a fact that Caesar is telling the truth? No.

You can't say what Caesar says is true when evidence shows his face was never scarred or torn off.

Did Caesar lead you to think he was a 'man' when he was brought into the Legion? Yes.

Did Legionaries say that he was a 'boy' when he was in the Legion? Yes.

If so, there is a contradiction and it is safe to say a majority of legionaries who reference this can be relied upon as a source of information, which is to say that Caesar. is. Lying.

So because Caesar has better rank means his word == fact?
What does it matter which route you take for the ending quest as long as you talk to him from every angle?

I'm not saying Caesar's lying. I'm just saying that I've seen things from more than one angle, and can generally say that Caesar was wrong in that regard.




The whole face thing might have simply been overlooked by the developers. I'm not saying you're wrong, but the game engine is so non-flexible that the developers thought it wasn't worth screwing around with? Could be.

@Mr Doom

Ignore this first part, misread his post initally. As far as Caesar's remark about Lanius' face being torn off, I'd chalk it up to propaganda to boost his intimidation factor. Or, it could just be a small plot hole.

I see, so claiming that the burned man walks can be construed as evidence of the CL developing a sort of 'culture' but when the same thing happens with them making up a story Lanius's past its lore?

Ok, answer me this if Lanius was a part of the Legion since he was 12, and he is really the monster of the east.. why has he only just appeared at the head of the legion? Sure JG was 2nd in command before but Lanius was bound to be around and the Legion would have still been talking about him, right? No.. It's Bs

As far as the face thing. You get to take his mask off at the ultimate end of the game, Just like Gabriel has claimed many time in this debate, probably an oversight

Okay since what I explain to you clearly isn't being understood, I will say it in the simplest of words.

Because a higher ranked person says something about a person, does it make it true? Possibly.
After hearing what is said about said person, and talking to them directly and seeing for yourself that what was said isn't true, is what the person said true? No.

Lanius would not have been talked about or have stories about him if Graham was still Legate, why? Because Lanius only had stories fabricated about him after he gained reconition as the Legate.
The Burned Man walks is a rumor spread by some people who think they may have seen him, or have just started a lie to start unrest or to ease someone somehow.

If it is an oversight, then ask a devoloper if it is so, if they say yes then I am wrong, but since they won't answer this question it is up for debate.

Well it's 4am here now :S

Just since we have gotten off topic here, I'll reiterate. From all of the evidence I've seen in the game, Lanius is nothing more than a psychopath. Caesar is the glue that keep them all together. Without Caesar, the legion dies slowly.

So no, there won't be any lasting CL civilisation, certainly not developing architecture or settlements etc.

This was not off-topic, but farewell- even if I showed you evidence that he isn't a pyschopath.

So it all boils down to you're right and we're wrong because you say so? Well I guess that's the end of that.

You didn't, at all. But you're more than welcomed to continue trying. I'll have a look over your posts sometime tomorrow/later today.

You seem to need rest afterall, if you don't see any.

CL future is in the dirt. They are cannon fodder.......

I could pull the L.A. Raiders straight out of Tecmo Bowl and Bo Jackson alone would kill 400 cl scrubs.

Give me some real bad guys. I have to fight on cl side so I get shot. I hope Obsidian puts a giant fake battle on u tube for the canon ending so we can watch cl get slapped.

You do that.

My take on the matter is that Caesar is actually rather frustrated with the problem that he is basically just managing a new Mongol horde as opposed to the Neo-Rome he wants. His major goal in taking Vegas is essentially giving the Legion something he can plant his flag over and call "Neo-Rome." The fact he DOESN'T have something like this already implies to me that Caesar's Legion unfortunately is just a vast collection of tribal villages which Caesar has strung together. It's probably why he's so supportive of traders (male ones at least) because Caesar wants to develop an economy - which is something that the tribes he's conquered naturally *do not have*. Caesar's capital is probably the Fort, for all intents and purposes, a roving camp that moves with Caesar.

it's actually Caesar's smartest move because building an economy and religion (with him as god) is one of the best ways you can unite a people. I suspect that the whole "female slavery" thing is actually due to Caesar not having any cities either. Ditto, the slavery thing in general. Caesar wants to outbreed all of the other tribes and create a population raised in his crazy "religion of Rome" that he can call his own. Given the majority of women would be fathered upon by his Legionaires, disgusting as it sounds, this gives Caesar the makings of the next generation of his citizenry.

I suspect the slavery is to give Caesar a vast labor force he can use to start building farms and so on to sustain his Legion.

If Lanius is allowed to leave with [Barter 100], in all likelihood he's going to keep Caesar's legion building. I suppose it depends on whether or not the Legion discovers anything about Old Rome if it continues on to become a new Rome.

I am joining this thread already in progress

I feel the question of both the future of Caesar's Legion and Caesar's Legion and the future is a good one. But regardless of my thoughts about the Legion I feel the four biggest impediments to its success in the years following the Battle of Hoover Dam are 1) Caesar's absolute control of the Legion with no plans for succession or a Legion without Caesar, 2) the Legion's support of slavery and the effect it has on the economy by keeping labor out of the hands of freemen (arguably the heart of abolitionism in the American west, see Free Labor or Free Soil movements), and 3) the degradation of women in Legion society and how that affects its popular support in areas that are not currently but could be soon members of the Legion (specifically New Vegas and the NCR west). For example, from Cass' dialogue it would seem she is a lifetime supporter of the NCR but hates that she admires the Legion in a way that could be deeper or easier to embrace if not for their views and treatment of women, and finally 4) the Legion's, or specifically Caesar's, distaste for technology

in any case, the Legion needs reform with serious idealogical shifts into a body that limits (or abolishes) slavery, embraces egalitarian ideals and women's rights, has a more definite structure beyond the Buck-Stops-(and Starts)-Here of Caesar, and is not afraid to use technology to improve its own conditions. Even if everything else about the Legion's character, culture, goals, and ideals stayed the same after the above changes, it would be a much better change both for itself and for the future of the Mojave

in another thread I discussed some of the philosophy of the Legion and of Caesar's goals, ambitions, and motivations:

"truth, by all accounts it would seem all the tribes the Legion formed from and then subsequently absorbed were all at the same low tech level. Perhaps Caesar uses the low tech level not only as a philosophical unifier of the tribes of the Legion or as a method of control to keep some tribes who objected to their assimilation from using advanced technology and "liberating" themselves, thus keeping himself at the top and in control. Which leads one to wonder if Caesar truly feels his method of governance is better than the Republic he's trying to destroy or if he's merely a megalomaniac who holds a stranglehold on the control of the Legion for his own ends?

in either case, I feel Caesar's objection to technology on the grounds of that it weakened humanity and brought the nuclear holocaust is another example of either ignorance of some aspects of Roman culture or just revisionist history on the part of Caesar. Both the Roman Republic and Imperial Rome dominated the rest of the known world in technology and its application. If he truly wanted to emulate Rome he would be much more accepting of that fact."

I don't know why Caesar doesn't want the Securitrons at the Fort. If he really wants to win the Dam using his own men, that's understandable, but he should have used them to barge through Mojave Outpost and just run amok in California, killing as many NCR people as possible.

According to Boone, Caesar actually did establish a full line of sucession. The issue, according to Mister House, is that this isn't necessarilly gong to be respected given they're a group of backstabbing tribals who aren't nearly as into the Kool-Aid as Caesar thinks they are (the Centurion at McCarran Airport for example). Disturbingly, killing Legate Lanius may help the Legion in the long run as it moves it down the food chain to possibly someone more visionary.



Oddly, if Caesar were said to be DOING anything with the slaves (ala Lord Ashur) then he might have even more support. Rebuilding civilization or, in the case of the Legion, just building civilization period requires a lot of cheap labor. Slavery could well serve the Legion in constructing cities, digging wells, and generally making the East into a place worthy of life.



I, personally, wonder what Caesar's reasons for this were. Was it due to the tribes were naturally sixist to begin with or does Caesar have an agenda? Or is Caesar just a misogynist [censored].



In Cass' case, it's mostly just the fact that the Legion genuinely does bother to protect its caravaners, which is considered a non-issue by the NCR. I don't think Cass is in any way tempted by the Legion but is frustrated by NCR's overstretched and incompetant nature. Unlike Boone, whose issues with NCR is mostly limited to Bitter Springs.

Still, Raul's point that the Legion's territories were worse before the takeover implies a number of things. I'm inclined to think the rampant misogyny and slavery was probably already there - it's just Caesar is now establishing the beginnings of civilization. Probably working on moving the East from the Stone Age to the Iron Age to Medieval and maybe more if he can get more educated workers/slaves.

(Caesar's obsession with the White Glove Society seems to be based on the idea that he needs cultured "townies" so to speak to compensate for his Legion being nothing more than a horde).

It might be Caesar intends to conquer NCR in order to "reform" THAT society with his current Legion just a means to an end.



I'm inclined to think Caesar is a megalomaniac who enjoys playing God. However, he genuinely believes he's a super-genius making the Wasteland a better place. The technology issue, however, may have a legitimate point. Scavenging technology has lead to a good deal of reliance on it versus actual industry and so on. It might be that Caesar is intending to reassert technology once he has control of Vegas and so on.

He just is keeping low-tech for his tribal legions.



It's wrong to read beyond a character's words when there's no sign but it's equally possible Caesar just doesn't TRUST the Securittrons since he's not a scientist.

Since this has degenerated into "why the legion svcks" vs "why the legion is awesome," let me just point out one thing.

The legion are liars. Aside from being rapists and slavers and cannibals, they will bold-faced lie to you, in order to make their heinous traits seem noble.

Remember Nipton? Remember how you were told that no one even fought back? Did you actually look around? Because if you did, you probably noticed something in the Trailer park area. A dead civilian, with a laser rifle. And next to him, a pile of ash with legion armor. Almost like they DID fight back.

The Legion picked Nipton, not because it was evil and needed to be purged. They picked Nipton because it was EASY. Most of the town was high, and couldn't fight back. The rest could be bought off and double crossed.


Remember Cottonwood, and how the Legion calls the NCR weak? They tell tales about how the scared NCR won't attack them, and how brave Legion troops go out and attack all the time. Do you also remember the Brotherhood scout between Forlorn Hope and Nelson? A neutral 3rd party tells a much different story. Both groups are scared. Neither are willing to actually attack. So much for the bold and daring Legion.


Also, anyone with a wife, sister, daughter or mother, bear in mind that she will be sold off into prostitution under the legion rule.

Even Marcus said that without Ceaser, Ceasers Legion will fail.

Marcus is not some oracle that can see the future.
He's never been on Legion lands for all we know and might just be talking out of his ass.
I like Marcus, I really do, but I won't take his words as the definite truth just cause they're from him.

Doesnt matter it even shows some proof of the legions sucesses. Hes been around long than anyone in the legion and would know the best.