You know what I say?

Caesar shall rise! :mohawk:

That emoticon is awesome

I agree gabriel, I think its fascinating that the Legion has already developed its own folk tales (the burned man for example) and that, while it is easy to argue that they are little more than a conglomerate of slaves and slavers, it is clear that there is already a distinct and unique culture forming amongst there ranks. Should they acquire New Vegas, and the Dam, and conquer the Mojave, I think the inevitable outcome of that is rapid expansion and growth, regardless of the individual who sits in the throne of Caesar.

This isn't about Marcus being a reliable source lol.
this is about Marcus (which is portrayed as a fairly old and wise charcter, right?) pointing out the flaw's in human nature that everyone is aware of. It's actually even evident when you speak with Silus and he refuses to follow their ideals in the first place (by not committing suicide) and then by completely betraying them..

Marcus doesn't have to go to AZ to know about human nature. Also even for the very short time that Lanius 'does' take over the Legion already begins to change.. so.. Yeah.

Oops, their* ranks. Sorry, don't want the Grammar Gestapo or Spelling Stasi kicking in my door tonight. <_<

1. Then his "pointing out flaws in human nature" should not be reliable.

2. He points out the flaws in human nature as he knows it. He has never faced or interacted with Legion as far as we know so his wiseness could just be him talking out of his ass.

3. Was a long time since I did his interrogation but from the wikia I collected that he chose capture instead of suicide but refuses to reveal Caesar's plans. Sure enough he defies the loyalty as he places his life before the Legion's safety, but he's still loyal enough to not reveal any of their plans (unless the PC with the magical [speech] comes in.
But as I said, was a long time ago since I did the interrogation, I'm sure I'm "off".

4. Legion is changing the human nature that Marcus is used to though. And change will be brought with every new incarnation of Caesar. Doesn't mean that the Legion will crumble.

[edit]
By the way, what part of human nature is Caesar trying to change? (In Marcus' opinion.)

The Legion is held together by one very smart man (Caesar). He was granted this education elsewhere.. If you let Lanius take over he doesn't become Caesar.. Caesar isn't even referred to ingame as a rank, it's simply the name taken... Human nature is human nature. Dogged, relentless loyalty to a deity figure is what the Legion is about. Under the rule of Caesar this works, he's a very smart man with a plan. Lanius is a loonatic that lives to hurt, mame and kill. Hoover dam battle v1 showed just how well/smart the legion were without Caesar...

I'm sorry I can see that you seem to be quite the fan of the Legion, but for me.. They were pretty one dimensional, they have a ruthless leader, they follow said leader. Thats it.. There is pretty much zero individual intelligence there besides Caesar. There are actually nothing more than a large group of raiders. As with the Fiends, with no leadership they will eventually crumble. they may not be chem-crazed psychopaths but they show the exact same lack of initiative. They aren't even very good at what they are supposed to specialise in, a few CL with AMR's aren't going to be able to take the dam. The only CL thats even close to useful in battle is Lanius and even he can simply be persuaded not fight..

If, by some miraculous plot-device they were actually able to turn the tide on Hoover dam, all I can see them achieving is a complete and utter waste of the Strips potential. Eventually becoming victims of their own mentaility, using up the resources and being forced to leave or face starvation.

The legion (for the most part) live in tents, they don't farm, conquer much smaller tribals, fights with machetes, spurn battle enhancing chemicals and have almost zero knowledge of technology.

Tbh in many ways the Great Khans are vastly superior to the Legion, sure they have smaller numbers but at least they try and maintain a certain equilibrium with the wasteland, have knowledge of medicine and chems and actually use projectile weapons.

The Legion is such a dramatically flawed enemy its unbelievable that they could take the dam, let alone evolve into a society once their one and only intelligent leader dies..

Agreed. *Levels marksman carbine at Beethoven's torso*

I think the issue is that Caesar is a raging egomaniac.

He's made no real heir or system for his replacement.

Why? Because he's a dictator with no family. Even Julius made it a point to have an heir.

Lucius seems to have his head screwed on right and might make an excellent replacement for Caesar. Hey, he might even be against plenty of the causal evils and cruelties of the Legion (probably not).

However, he dies almost certainly WITH Caesar if you choose to assassinate him.

The Legion chooses to follow Lanius, anyway, who is even MORE of a slash/pillage/murder sort of guy.

I honestly don't see them staying united for long; once Cesar is gone I think CL will crumble. At the very least I feel his death would bring a civil war.

EDIT Ha maybe I should have just read what others had wrote before replying to the OP as many have said exactly how I imagined CL would end up if they won.

Getting back to buildings; one thing that could be revived fairly quickly in a more stable Mojave is cement production (lots of raw material sources in the SW USA and there's already a functioning quarry for the aggregate). Sounds dull but it's a pretty significant technology, used in Europe by the Romans and capable of creating monumental structures with basic equipment.

So, whoever ended up ruling the area would be able to create new fortified towns and forts pretty quickly, repair roads and bridges etc, the only real shortage would labour in the early years.

It has to be said that the Mojave is a pretty terrible place to do anything, it is after all a desert.

I think it'd be interesting if the Legion taking control over the Mojave would be the "canon" ending so to speak. I could easily see it as Caesar taking control of the Strip, successfully running things for a few years, managing to turn the area into a safer and more "civilized" place (under his boot of course). But then, as Caesar dies of either old age, or being murdered, the area is thrown into turmoil once again and then... Yeah, war never changes. The Legion splits apart, various new tribes and societies are formed from the remains etc. The partially rebuilt Strip is torn into pieces, now a very dangerous place filled with gangs and people trying to scavenge the tech (and failing to understand it, like with the Followers when you spy on Mr House for them).

The NCR is an interesting faction but I hope they won't be in too much control because of how their values so closely mirror those we have of today. The wasteland should feel like the wasteland, Fallout should never become too civilized, if advances are made in some field there should be equal "setbacks" as well as humanity continues to mess things up.

Good post, I want to remain on topic as well!

Cement would be viable but also keep in mind wood. In a lot of countries Norway/Sweden/Canada you even today get massive buildings made out of wood. With wood you can rapidly construct bridges, walls, houses, and much more.
In FNV there are hundreds of trees. Wood is extremely simple, durable and versatile.

You also have Vegas Steel (which appears to have been running on auto-pilot for 200 years mysteriously!) but more importantly you have The Pitt which is a massive operation. Clearly wastelanders can produce steel then.

Also where does Gun Runners get materials for all their guns? A minigun contains an electric motor (even the first one ever made had an electric motor) - which means they need to get plastic and many other components.

Here's the major idea. Caesar is too busy being lame and having brain tumors to do things. Basically he'll cry off in the corner and die. His legion is full of idiots that slit their throats if the centurion dies or w/e and they can't last for more than 1 month before the deathclaws svck all of our brains out and stage an attack. Soooooo that's what happens if Caesars legion comes into power. They're a poor replica of Rome. Caesar is exactly like Hitler roman version. So supporting Caesar is like supporting Hitler. If NCR comes in then things improve, there's room to create. The BoS kicks deathclaw ass and everything is cool.

In what way is Caesar like Hitler?

Look, I'm not sure if you're attempting to be funny or whatever, but if anybody posseses the ability to protect its population from enemies, such as deathclaws, it's Caesar's Legion. This can be seen when the Legion wipes out the Powder Gangers that escaped from the NCRCF as soon as they achieve victory, if you have not.

And it's not certain that Caesar would die had the Courier not intervened. It said nothing of Caesar succumbing to his brain tumour (to my recollection) in my House playthrough. And even if he does die, Lanius will take his place. Bringing about a much more ruthless but nevertheless equally as powerful Legion.

People who like the CL think that they wouldn't be slave in their society. Sure, your character might be an officer, but if you yourself were there you would most likely be killed or enslaved in their initial attack. If not you, all of your loved ones, especially any female ones.

And if they didn't kill you right away, there is a chance they will kill you later like they did with other tribes.

They don't kill/enslave towns that cooperate with them.
They only kill/enslave/integrate "tribes" or those that don't cooperate with them.

So no, they would not have any reason to enslave me or kill me if I didn't pose a threat, cooperate with them and abide by their rules.

Why, They are Slavers.

To get Regis to agree to stop siding with the Legion, you have to show him records of tribes the legion has backstabbed. So obviously they aren't to be trusted even if you agree to help them.

That's because the Khans are a tribe.
Tribe's, factions, organizations, gangs et cetera are not allowed to exist on Legion lands.
All of those are eliminated by extermination, enslavement or integration.

Nipton?

I'll just get trained as Legion
I'm 14 so I don't know if thats too old to be trained but I want to join Legion!

Alright then, i guess the conversation will end with this: You are fine with submitting to a slaver's rule and as such are completely fine with slavery



As for buildings, it doesn't seem like they would care too much about making buildings what with the conquering they have to do... they might start to build more extravagant structures if and only if they conquesr all of the U.S/all they had planned to conquer

Nipton was a special case. Whilst they did cooperate with the Legion, it was a town of treacherous scumbags.

They previously were working with the NCR, and changed allegiance at the drop of a hat. Who's to say they wouldn't have done the same for the Legion further down the road?

In short, yes.

I don't like slavery but as long as it serves a purpose for the greater good then I'm fine with it.
When it's no longer needed (which won't be until I've died of old age anyway.) then I'd raise my voice against Legion if they continued to use slaves.


[edit]

Oh and Nipton was for several reasons.
First was that the place was filled with bad people. Legion wants towns under their control as well but a town that prospers on stabbing people in the back is not in their interest, so they had to go. (Sure, Legion does the same thing about stabbing people in the back, but it's in order to expand their nation and get rid of opposition where as Nipton used it solely for greed.)

Second is that it's a terror strategy against NCR morale, since the Quarry road is closed off caravans have to go through there, everyone has to see the people up on those crosses as they walk along the road.

Third is to give the rest of the wasteland a warning; "We did this to Nipton, if you don't want to end up the same way then don't be like them." It's basically a warning to the rest of the inhabitants of the Mojave of things to come for those that Legion considers to not bring anything useful to society. That bad people have no place in their world. And to show the cruelty of their laws to criminals (PG's).

That's my view on Nipton at least.

Nipton served no purpose to the Legion, and it doesn't help that it was filled with scum that'd kill you for a single cap. The Legion proved that by hiring its citizens to kill those who the town had taken it.. And of course Caesar's Legion has no use for people like that (They're a classy bunch)

Burning it down was the best thing to do, and it also sends a message to the Legion's enemies.

I really hope that we can put this Nipton argument behind us.