So the one inhabited town we have the advantage of seeing the Legion occupy in-game just happens to be a special case that could certainly never occur anywhere else. Right.

Nipton wasn't working with the NCR. They were neutral and certainly amoral but they agreed to cooperate with the Legion and in exchange were all brutally executed because they didn't live up to the Legion's moral standards. They weren't even given a chance to reform their behavior. Legion just marched in and slaughtered them all.

So yeah they do kill and enslave towns that cooperate with them. Better hope you're also sufficiently moral in the eyes of the Legion.

1. It's not a "special case" like it's a one time thing but it's also not what happens to every town Legion encounters.

2. Read my previous posts edit.

3. Yeah, they do kill and enslave towns that aren't really towns but actually just rest stop cesspools of prostitution, greed and criminals.
What else are they gonna do? Allow them to exist? So that they might prey on Legion caravans and citizens? Integrate them? Why? They're not legionnaire material. Enslave them? As heard from Canyon Runner, not everyone becomes a slave. They have certain standards as to who becomes a slave and who is killed off. Apparently Legion had their reasons for killing most of Nipton off.
Also remember that this was Vulpes way of handling Nipton. If Lanius had handled it then the town would have limbs and organs nailed to every building.

Yeah the latter part is why it was actually burned down because it was an effective method to demoralize the Legion's enemies without any real risk. Morality is just an excuse since we know the Legion willingly cooperates with the



We can if people will drop the "Legion are only brutal if you oppose them" argument. The Legion's only sense of morality is based around what's beneficial for the Legion. If killing you helps the Legion they'll do it at the drop of a hat, no matter how loyal to Caesar you might be.

Omerta's are (/used to be) a tribe though.
If a tribe can prove useful they have a strong chance to be integrated into the Legion.
Omerta's are certainly not much better than Nipton but do we know what happened to them by the end of the game?
We have no idea what actually happened to White Glove Society or Omerta's after Legion conquers the strip.
For all we know they could have decided that Omerta's are even worse than Nipton and killed them off.
Or they might see their tribe as resourceful warriors who could do well being integrated into the Legion.
We simply don't know what happened to those two tribes by the end.

I'm sure it's not. It also doesn't change the fact that the Legion doesn't care whether you oppose them or not. If wiping you out helps them they'll do it. The Legion is no more moral than any other faction in the Mojave. They'll do what serves the Legion.



If the Legion really finds Nipton so awful and incapable of reform that they all had to be brutally exterminated then why do they cooperate with the Because working with the latter is beneficial to their goals while Nipton's could best help by the Legion by being killed as you point out. It's just naive to pretend they did it for moral reasons.



Yeah and their reasons for killing off Nipton was because massacring the town served a far more valuable purpose than keeping it around. Morality is just an excuse and it's naive to pretend otherwise given who else the Legion works with and doesn't kill off.

And since we don't know what happened to those tribes, I'd say that it's a moot argument.

Yes they were. Maybe not the NCR as a whole, but they were working with a squad of NCR Troopers. They agreed to give up some powder gangers they were sheltering to the NCR. Or it may have been the other way round.

Either way, they betrayed the Powder Gangers or the NCR to the Legion.

I don't think they'll have a future with the new and improved Service Rifle. Just saw 2 NCR troopers take out 5 Legion recruits (and a whole bunch of nightstalkers) with that beast of a gun.

Well, we can speculate.

Omerta's are a tribe, they used to be warriors, a raider band.
This means that if they prove useful as legionnaires they could very well be integrated.
They are on the other hand also worse than Nipton was.

So the question is; will the views of Vulpes morality weight out their usefulness as legionnaires?

you said tribes are eliminated though

(edit) when we were talking about the khans

(edit again) oh wait nvm, you said via integration as well

Ceasers legion in the future is gonna be beneath NCR's Boot!

Hi ya.

Welcome to the forums!

Sincerely,

Ace Hanlon.

*sigh*
Yes, they are eliminated.
But there are different ways to eliminate tribes.

Exterminate.
Integrate.
Enslave.

If a tribe's advlts don't serve the physique to be a legionnaire they might be enslaved.
Those sick, elderly or handicapped will be killed off.
The children and younger males will be integrated.

If a tribe is fanatically religious and refuses to let go of their beliefs they are exterminated.

A healthy tribe which advlts are not capable of warfare are enslaved.

A raider tribe is integrated and if integration is not possible then they are exterminated.

yea, i edited my post when i saw that


(edit) still, the legion are still backstabbing, slaving liars that would strip away all basic human rights causing you to basically be a slave even if you aren't technically one. Also i bet that they wouldn't keep many people alive or free when they integrate a tribe, but rather kill the toruble-making tough guys, enslave the women, then turn the kids into mindless legion warriors.

So if you're a former tribe it's okay to be completely immoral? How does that make any sense?



Then why wasn't Nipton given that opportunity?





I don't see any mention of Caesar killing anyone. The other ending for CL certainly mentions death so why wouldn't Caesar's? Probably because he didn't kill anyone since with the Legion in control of the Mojave those sort of psyops operations weren't needed anymore and fresh warriors and slaves are more valuable than making examples.



Yet we know Caesar's entrance into the Strip is treated like a Triumph and there is no mention of him killing anyone on the Strip. To pretend regardless of this that Caesar had them killed is just unbelievable.



Right. And Nipton might've had resourceful warriors too but they were much more useful dead to scare the hell out of NCR troops than as soldiers or slaves. The Legion will do what benefits them. Morality doesn't really enter into it.



This is like claiming that it is possible there is no slavery in Legion territory off the front-lines because we haven't seen Legion territory (not saying you argue this). It's just clinging to an omission as proof when all evidence points the other way.

They weren't working with the troops. The troops just came there for recreation. Powder Gangers did the same thing. Nipton was affiliated with no faction.



Thereby cooperating fully with the Legion's request. For this they were all brutally murdered by the Legion because in death they could be useful to terrify the Legion's enemies. Doesn't seem like the Legion much cares whether or not towns cooperate with them. Let's drop the Legion is really moral act.

1. It doesn't, I was saying that because they were a former raider tribe they know how to fight and are capable warriors, Legion likes to integrate capable warriors to expand.

2. Did Nipton have any warfare experience? Are they going to be good warriors in the Legion? Are they going to be good citizens? Are they going to be loyal?

3. It's still too unclear of what exactly happened to both tribes.

4. :shrug: Who knows, maybe the one who wrote the endings didn't think of it.

5. And how would it benefit them to let Nipton live?

6. What evidence? An ending slider not matching up to the Nipton/Omerta connection? What if the one who wrote that slider didn't think through all the facts and missed it?

Does it really matter what happened to the Omertas? Although I highly doubt the Legion killed them off.

And apparently doesn't care whether those warriors match up to their standards of morality or not. So why did Nipton get torched for immorality? Because Caesar's Legion doesn't actually care about morality.



The same questions could be posed about the Omertas. These are guys worse than the people of Nipton who also demonstrate a propensity to betray their allies and benefactor for selfish purposes. There are dead Legionnaires in Nipton. Why is a guy capable of killing a Legionnaire not capable enough to be inducted into the Legion?



What part of the Legion ending with Caesar indicates he had the Omertas killed? Everything written there argues against it.



Bit of a cop-out. You can't just say well that ending doesn't seem to fit and therefore ignore it.



It doesn't. At least not nearly as much as killing them did. Which is why they did it. Not because Nipton was a special case of immorality that had to be purged.



Or maybe the guy who wrote the slider did know and understood that the Legion doesn't care at all about punishing immorality except when it serves their purposes. C'mon Gabriel this is a weak argument from you. Like it or not the endings are indisputable.

It does if you want to pretend the Legion extermination of Nipton was a special case because they were so awful and immoral they just had to die.

If Nipton had to be destroyed because of immorality the Omertas should be at least equally guilty.

The Omertas were definitely no saints, but they're beneficial to the Legion. Same about The Khans. It's evident why the Legion burned Nipton to the ground, but I feel it's a redundant discussion.

Which is all I want made clear. Nipton wasn't a special case because the Legion just couldn't stand the abhorrent degree of immorality they saw they killed them because it helped their cause. Often wholesale extermination doesn't help their cause but when it does cooperating with the Legion and/or obeying their rules isn't going to matter to them.

1. I wonder when we got into morality here, if I was the one that started going on about it then (read 7) scratch that part. Legion are hardly about "morality".
Nipton was a blight on the map, a town which served no purpose in production or development. Their reason for razing the town to the ground was not about "oh but these guys are evil." but rather that the town did not serve a point in longterm.

2. The Omerta's know what will happen when Legion rolls in and have accepted it, they "could" have used the armaments they've aquired to do an ambush on Legion after the battle when they were worn out. They "could" have helped House or NCR instead since they don't seem to have any direct quarrels with them. But no, they chose to help Legion in taking the strip fully knowing what Legion are. I'd say that it shows their loyalty. And before Mr House they were one of the top three raider bands in the area, so they are proficient warriors.

4. I'm not, I'm saying that the writers "can" make contradictions or miss things. It's very very possible. But since the ending slider does not make a clear case out of what happened to the families on the strip then it all comes down to speculations. Besides, people did die during the conquest of Vegas, so the ending slider "is" flawed.

6. Maybe.

7. I've done an all nighter so what I really want to do is just drop it and watch X Files until it's time to go to bed, but I don't want to leave in the middle of a discussion either so I don't think my arguments are going to be good as my brain is a tad on the slow side.

8. Unless they are too vague to truly single out what happened to a certain group.

[edit]

9. "Which is all I want made clear. Nipton wasn't a special case because the Legion just couldn't stand the abhorrent degree of immorality they saw they killed them because it helped their cause."

9. Well, yeah, isn't that the point I've been trying to make?

Especially given since their clear display of disloyalty.

Stupid statement is stupid, I've seen first hand what the Legion would be like in real life in areas I have worked at in the middle east.

I was shipped to America, and have seen first hand what the NCR would rebuild it to be.

The Legion is trying to push forward using harsh methods but guess what? They work.
Oh look at the NCR on the other hand, they are working to rebuild what failed once on a global scale- which also pushed forward the end of civilization once.

So, lets see... Some group which is effective at enforcing laws, creating a new Civilization, and is keeping its inhabitants safe from raiders and criminals... Oooor some group which is rebuilding a society plagued by corruption, inefficency, one controlled by groups who have the ability to do whatever they want since they control more land and have more money, and one that is copying the world that failed?

I'd take safety over freedom because freedom is not always the best route.

Silus is the true face of the Legion....power for power's sake. Except for a couple naive people like Lucius, and psychos like Lanius who want to remake the world via Social Darwinism, that's what thier leaders are all about, from Caesar on down.