I am making a town geared towards thievery as some of you know by now. What I need is input and ideas. So far this town contains:

*Openable chests. They literally open.

*Secret safes.

*Stealable paintings.

*Wealth geared towards class. In other words the rich are actually rich and the poor not. However the wealth is not overkill.

*Access to houses through windows.

*Gallery, this is geared towards theivery and involves a quest to rob it and contains really exclusive priceless pieces of art and items. This one is filled with complicated alarm systems and tough guards.

*All NPC interiors are set to 'Off Limits' so NPCs will attack if you are caught.


What am I missing?

Occurrences where some houses in the 'rich' neighborhood are actually poor, and some instances where poor houses are actually rich. Hear me out..

Idea being that some of those rich folks might have issues like gambling, or business going down. So they have sold off everything they could to maintain a facade of wealth.

The poor houses looking rich -- I am mainly thinking of underworld bosses. People know that so-and-so lives there, if you touch that house he/she will hunt you down. However, due to their 'low' status they simply may not be able to move into a rich neighborhood.

Also, have you considered adding in traps or scripted encounters? Trying to pilfer an ornate silver chalice from an alter spawning some undead guardians (For example).

Some very good points here, thanks.

There are certain high profile goods that if you steal them from the Gallery you will be hunted as long as you have them in your possession. Also no fence will take them as the goods are too hot. So that is where you have to track down a mobster fence.

I was unsure about the mobster fence that is in another new town. The houses in that other town are lower class and I was unsure about putting one very rich fence into a lower class home. But he is on the run and laying low and what you said about underworld bosses 'low' status makes sense, so thanks for that.

I didn't even think about rich being actually poor, that does sound more realistic. There are some poor that have a 'hidden' stash already. A bag of coin stashed away safetly here or there.

Thanks for the good ideas.

How about places that are stonking rich, but have been looted already? I mean like gold plated wall bricks taken out of their housing, a ton of containers smashed to hell and beyond, with nothing inside(except some items which show next to no value, a few of which that could actually be worth stealing since they are wanted by someone), and a very special type of lock on some things that are really valuable: Reverse Locks. I don't know how they really work, nor do I know if they ever existed or were used often, but the basic concept is that when you see that it should be locked, it isn't, and when it looks open, it's locked.
While this would make it easier to steal the items, one could make it more complex, like if it doesn't lock again without the key, or it breaks into the unlocked position when you unlock it, and thus you can't open it without finding another way to remove it.
But these locks would have to be uncommon enough that a thief wouldn't expect to find one. Like how Invisible Ink vanishes, but shows up again when you add another liquid to it, if enough people know that that's how it works, then Invisible Ink is thus useless. That is, unless one uses it wisely. In this case, if one writes with normal ink first, and then writes again with invisible ink in certain places, the ink is hidden by virtue of being out of place(because if someone expects a invisible assassin, they safeguard against that, but if they see a killer charging at them, they wouldn't expect the real killer to be invisible, now would they?).

Dont really have any good ideas, but i really hope you include some morally difficult things like where you actually have to stop and think "wow...am i REALLY going to be that low..." kind of like hanging out at a funeral then robbing the grave when everyone leaves XD. actually i guess if you decided to add in a graveyard or catacombs you could always have that open to steal from (lol, kind of thought of something in my example )

Sets.

Some items are valuable on their own, but if you have the full set, they're suddenly more valuable. E.g the ten ancestors for Umbacano.

Some good ideas here, thanks.

So I have window entries into some houses, not all. Due to a need to keep FPS as good as possible obviously not every window will be enterable. Some enterable windows are obvious in that they look broken and are named 'broken window'. However some are not broken. So my questions is.....

What do I call those windows, they need a reason as to why they are enterable, I don't think just 'Window' is good.

A jar window
Loose window
Open Window (But the window is not obviously open)
Unlocked Window (I was planning on having most of them locked, but maybe I shouldn't.)

You are a thief creeping along a dark alley in the middle of the night and you are trying windows to see if you can gain entry through any, you come across one that you could break into......a little manipulation with the point of a dagger will unlock the latch.....

Any ideas? These may seem like dumb questions, but they are integral to the thieving experience.

Maybe isntead of naming by the window state, name them by the state of the lock? But not neccesarily having them be pickable. Examples:

Unlatched = Open
Latched = Very Easy
Cracked Lock = Easy
Rusty Lock = Normal
Locked = Hard
Barred = Have to open from the inside

A system like that maybe. Im flagging so I hope it makes sense.

Edit- Just had some coffee so I'm spark awake now. I'm guessing the ajar and open windows are modelled like so and thus are pretty obvious? Thinking about it my lock ideas are pretty silly (minus the latches) as well window locks tend to be on the inside. Perhaps a shield bash approach can be taken? Maybe with a chance of failure and alerting any nearby guards?

When I lived in RAF accomdation we had many tricks for tapping the badly made windows out of their frames and sidling into locked blocks. To save the locksmith being called out we once abseiled down a tower block in Germany to tap in the bathroom window and allow entry. Those were the days.

When I think of a thief, I don't think of a poor beggar who has to steal just to get buy, no I think of a smart, cunning tactical player that uses his wits more than his skill. The point im getting at is maybe for a major quest, has a huge, complex puzzle you have to solve. This could involve a set of objects that have to be placed in a certain order so a lock door opens, cryptic notes that lead the player to great treasures, etc. I think causing people to actually think things through would be a cool perk in this mod.

Other than that, maybe have certain NPCs have connections to the player. You could buy off a guard so he doesn't patrol a certain route in a quest, bribe other towns folk to cause a distraction while you sneak in unseen. Sorta taking the assassins creed way where in some cases people ask you to steal stuff for them in exchange for other valuables or information to hidden items.

I can't take it anymore I'm doing it. Thief: The Dark Project is being installed and I shall once agin blitz through the series. If you have not played the Thief trilogy Meek I highly advise it. You will find countless ideas and inspiration for your mod.

you could always do unlatched, like if they pulled it shut and just assumed it closed fully (if it looks closed but is still enterable) that happens a lot with my front door, someone will push it shut and it will be closed to where it looks closed but if i push on it from outside it will just swing open

Make sure to have plenty of guards to the streets and alleys to add to the difficulty. Traps and ways to disarm them would be great too.

Some sort of stealing quest would be cool. Like perhaps something was taken from someone and they want it back. It'd be the thief stealing from the thief.


I also like the "collection" idea. And the idea of coming to a house that has already been robed is a good idea, but making it trigger an event where the guards begin to search for the thief just as you get there and you have to sneak your way out without being seen.

If you're still after any ideas, then what about a calling card that builds your reputation? Cat burglar (literally in the case of a Khajiit), Pink-panther white glove style things. You can decide on your calling card before you leave the first one, and if you decide to rob high-profile nobles, monarchs or businesses you can leave the object behind. The more you leave, the more people will talk and the authorities will worry about this infamous thief.

How about a a bitter and disgruntled NPC, or group of NPC's, who at one time were quite wealthy. Through whatever means (they squandered it, or were railroaded by whomever), they lost their fortunes, and now seek to repay those they feel are responsible (whether or not they are).

It has some potential for an interesting storyline, ambiguity about how exactly the fortunes were lost could add a bit there; Am I working for a person/people who were unjustly used? Am I working for a petty, vindictive jealous [censored]? Do I care?

This/these informants would get a portion of your haul in return for tips and information.

Maybe one or more get careless and too free with money, attracting attention and suspicion -- chances are slim they'd risk themselves for a thief, maybe you get led into a trap or two.

In a similar vein, you could go with a straight up Haves vs Have-Nots, where the wealthy oppress the rest; resentment and disenfranchisemant would be more than motivation to help an enterprising thief. In this scenario, if the Haves were a bunch of snobbish, foppish aristocrats lording it over the area while flaunting wealth and a total disregard for it's value (lavish, necessary parties, bizarre exotic foods, etc.) while routinely shafting the townsfolk (commissioning a weapon or something then refusing to pay) you could have quite a field day.

Go all Zorro on them! For dialogue and characters I recommend Zorro the Gay Blade, very funny movie.

Just an idea anyway. Also, Chimneys without smoke are a potential entry point.

Awesome ideas !!

What about you can somehow dig the earth in their garden, and enter their basemant through secret tunnel? Like that hole in Anvil where mountain lions entered that house with rats ... (Fighters Guild quest)


Also make some kind of local thieves guild , you can join it and u get quests , but you must cooperate with other members...(dont know how)

Also the alarms ... alarms should be some kind of ayleid runes who can detect living creatures and then they make magical noise and start to glow...

Would those alarms work on undead? If not, would they work on vampires?

EDIT: Okay, I just noticed you had alarms listed as part of the gallery, but maybe my ideas would help expand on the security system.


Perhaps some of the artwork and valuables in the gallery and particularly wealthy homes can be booby trapped? There could be a pressure sensitive switch that detects when an item has been removed from it's proper perch and will alert guards or fling spells at the thief in question. The spells could be things that paralyze you and keep you from getting away while the guards rush to capture you.

You could make it so that you first have to find a well hidden switch that disables the aforementioned traps, making it much more difficult to steal the loot and adding some need for tactical thought in order to pull off the heist.

I mean, caves and ruins have traps to prevent people from running off with their secrets. It seems to me that it would only make sense for the wealthy to want to do the same. :foodndrink:

I will look into that, thanks.



The alarm systems in the Gallery are controlled in the Control Room. Btw, the Gallery is massive, it contains:

Public Areas:

The Villages Display
The Dragon Display
The Ayleid Display
The Royal Jewels Display
The Egyptian Display
The Aquarium
The Creature Display
The Oblivion Display
The Farm Display
The Undead Display
The Hall of Masterpieces
Hall of Paintings
The Atrium
The Pottery Display
Odds and Ends Gift Shoppe
Rose's Gifts
Cosy Cafe (need another name)
Public Toilets

Non Public Areas:

Staff Offices
Storage Rooms
Maintenance Rooms
Security Rooms
Curator's Office
Curator's Apartment
A huge secret area

The areas of greatest interest to thieves will be of course the Royal Jewels Display, unfortunattely someone else got there first and the Septim Crown has vanished! But that aside there are a few ways to rob the Gallery:

*Storm in there and take just take the goods. Suicide and literally cannot be done.

*Ask around, just be careful there are people out there selling false information to wannabe thieves like you.

*Stumble onto the right track. If you are the sort that hangs out in the 'wrong' sort of places you may meet someone in the know who has a 'proposition' for you. Just again be careful who you trust. On a side note and only a little related, say the wrong thing, get close to the wrong person and you could be dead. A lot is dependant on dialogue.

*Break into the Curator's apartment and office (good luck) to find clues that will help you piece together an idea of the guards and alarm systems. This one requires some serious stake out work and a good plan....or you are dead and believe me there is nothing a Pell's Gatean likes better then a good hanging of a would be Gallery thief and they will tell you as much.

The thing about having guards everywhere is firstly, most Pell's Gate guards are corrupt and secondly FPS, it simply isn't feasible to have guards down every dark alley. It does make a difference however to have all NPC interiors set to 'off limits' as that raises the stakes, you will be attacked if discovered in someone's home, not politely told to leave.

I have played Thief 2 and 3 and there is much inspiration from those. In fact I am looking at how I can use the concept of a 'Thieves Highway' in Pell's Gate. There are secret alleys already but they are connected to the infamous Elm St, however I want a thief specific area, even just a few hidden 'safe' areas or passways.


Oh and lastly, meet the Mayor of Pell's Gate and his lovely wife....

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/Shezrie/mayor2.jpg

Like previous Mayors he is intent on 'cleaning' up Pell's Gate. I say good luck to him, quite frankly they can't even keep a good hangman, the last dozen have turned up dead within a week, usually through 'accidents'..

Thanks for all the input everyone.

I still think you should have a couple guards at least to do street patrols and script them to regard the PC as suspicious, just like the Thief games.

Where is the town going to be placed? I hope its outside the vanilla borders at least via a portal or beyond one of the borders.

Judging from the fact that the town is called Pell's Gate it will be located I'm guessing on the site of the currents Pell's Gate village. But most likely non open as to not destroy our systems.

Unfortunately easier said then done, no problem doing street patrols but Oblivion AI quite frankly svcks compared to Thief.



The town is complete and has been for some time, exteriors/interiors/NPCs all done, just the quests to finish. It is right beside the vanilla Pell's Gate, just across the bridge on the island. It is an expansion, however I ended up creating a whole new town and not touching the original Pell's Gate. So it is not outside the borders of Cyrodiil, although there is another 'mystery town' included with this mod that does lie outside the borders. That small town of just 12 buildings must be discovered through the Gallery quest as a certain fence lives there.

Although one of the visiting NPC's comes from there and will tell you about it and how to get there, if you play your cards right.

Edit, the town is open however there are no FPS issues on my medium range computer. Believe me I am all to aware of FPS issues especially as the last town I created was a 26 building affair smack in the middle of dense forest, Woodland Village.

Would this be the island that houses "The Lost Spires", "Artifacts Collectors Guild", and "SoTs The Order of Nibiney" buildings? if you are familiar with any of those mods.

How about architecture that is like Lynge's Thieves highway with upper deck and lower deck entrances?

How about competition in thieving or social support (TG outpost).

The wealthy folk being fed up and hiring the Dark Brotherhood to kill the thieves? Or mercenaries?

Traps designed to catch the thief and not so much harm them.

Replinishable quests (ones you can repeat with growing risk each time).

It is, in fact Pell's Gate conflicts with the Lost Spires Archeology guild. The guild sits right in the middle of town, however it could be pushed to the back of the town and maybe even incorporated into the town, accessible down a back alley. However I will contact the author of that mod and cross that bridge when it comes to it. However it is considerably easier to move one building then to move a 28 building town, so the guild would have to be moved in a patch.

It would be quite the addition to see the Lost Spires Archeology Guild, and the Collector's Society (from artifacts) merged into the town with a patch. Unfortunately I think The Order of Nibenay mod is much less known, and would be much more difficult to patch (multiple buildings which are placed as you order them to be built). As for the author of Lost Spires, I believe they have moved on from oblivion modding, so someone else would have to do it.