What's this "real" world? Is it a plane in Oblivion?

The important thing is to ask the right questions and that my good sir, is one of them

The MQ in Oblivion is horrible. Though I haven't played Skyrim's yet so I'm not sure how it compares.

But just regular quest wise - yes, Oblivion is better. OP had it right when they said that you're told exactly where to go and exactly who to kill. There's nothing more to it, save for a few quests.
I hope they develop Radiant Story to be more interesting in TESVI

I never finished the MQ in Oblivion. Generally, because Martin annoyed me somewhat. And because I was such a wuss, I didn't like entering Oblivion. As for side quests, yeah bru.

I tried the allies quest, then after failing to close one by getting lost in it i just closed the great gate without allies.
other than that i loved the oblivion main quest, though mankar camoran was quite easy, I ohko'd him with the king of miscarcerand

I disagree. Sky's graphics aren't really better, just different. PC's and NPC's, for instance, don't have nearly the same amount of graphical detail in Skyrim as they did in Oblivion. But Skyrim's landscapes (especially way in the distance) do have more details in them. For every little thing that Skyrim does better graphically, Oblivion does it better in some other way.


This is opinion, though. Oblivion's stories and questlines are often much longer than many of Skyrim's, but I wouldn't necessarily say they're better. I found Skyrim's quests to be more immersive in certain ways, personally. With Oblivion, some of the questlines are so long, I would often forget what happened way in the beginnings of them. I'd forget why my character was supposed to be going here to to this or that, how it relates to stuff which happened earlier in the game. And then the questline would wind up losing some focus, especially during some of my early characters & playthroughs.

I do wish some of Sky's quests were longer, though...don't get me wrong.

You have a point. Technically Skyrim's graphics are better, because of all the features and renderings.

But there are some ways that Oblivion are better, even though it doesn't use all the technology of Skyrim. For example, the body meshes are more detailed in Oblivion as you point out; the landscapes are more lush (though not the caves); and for NPC faces the proportions are better in Skyrim, but NPCs in Skyrim tend to actually look uglier than Oblivion's NPCs -- with some notable exceptions.

And the only reason people do not slam Oblivion as much is that now they spend their time slaming Skyrim. No opinions have changed, just a new group of fans have emeged(not pointing to you OP).

Personally I think Oblivions story is better than Skyrims, but I do not find it very deep. Like Morrowinds and Skyrims there are a limited way of doing things and is pertty much linear.
Despite the fact that I think the character system is highly outdated and lacks real distinction between the characters, entirely generated loot in dungeons and directly leveled enemies I think Oblivion is a great game and it is the game I have played the most to date.

That's the status quo argument- we prove Skyrim is actually not flawed because people criticised Oblviion at the time, and therefore this is just predictable.

It's just another face of minimization. Skyrim has less choice for the player. Attributes are gone (with three exceptions) spell making gone, NPC interaction largely curtailed, racial distinctions watered down, Guild builds greatly reduced.
Those are observable changes from Oblivion to skyrim. If you still love Skyrim, that's fine- but the criticism is not the same just because there were critics then and critics now.

The other argument is that we never needed or wanted those features/choices anyway.

True. Female humans and elves are much more difficult to make "pretty", or if not pretty, than it's more difficult for me to make them the way I want to make them. Males in Skyrim look improved on the other hand, but this is mostly due to the fact that we can put facial hair on them.

Basically, I can spend about 10 minutes making a male's face and be totally satisfied in Skyrim. But I could spend far more time than this trying to make a female, and possibly not be able to get away from that "scowling" look a lot of them have by default.

For whatever reason, many of the females in Skyrim are not attractive. That just doesn't make sense. They don't have to wear cocktail dresses and bows, but I thought Elves were an attractive people? There were some sweetheart dark elves in Oblivion. Even if Beth wanted 'realism', it's not realistic to have such dour looking women. Species have to reproduce,after all.

If they'd made some attractive, others less so- and some downright disagreeable- that would have been a nice touch. Just like on any sidewalk USA.

Wait what? This has nothing to do with Skyrim being flawed or not, only that many of the ones who bashed Oblivion have moved into the Skyrim section.

As for the less choice thingy:As I said: I still think Oblivion is a great game, but I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to point aut what I don't like about it.

By all means voice your opinion- but you said:

"And the only reason people do not slam Oblivion as much is that now they spend their time slaming Skyrim. No opinions have changed, just a new group of fans have emeged(not pointing to you OP)."

I don't know who those people are. I'm disapointed in Skyrim because choices are removed. The main quest is fine. The criticisms of Skyrim are NOT those heard about Oblivion per see. And that argument is the one I referred to in my post- the status quo argument.

All in all, I think Oblivion is a better game than Skyrim. Because there is a deeper character build, you can repeat after the newness wears off. Many people are finding that is difficult to do with Skyrim.

Oblivion was better than Skyrim or Morrowind. It's not nearly as buggy .It has a more open world to immerse yourself in. Skyrim reminded me of morrowind from the get go.
Full of bugs. I have completed the dragon quest,don't care about the civil war,and am bored stiff with Skyrim already. I played Oblivion for years and didn't tire of it. I would like to ask
the developers,designers,What were you thinking?

Those new fans I refered to are the ones on the Skyrim board who bash Skyrim for not being Oblivion, much like Oblivion was bashed for not being Morrowind. As for the ones who used to bash Oblivion for not being Morrowind they have movbed into the Skyrim forum because there is no point in discussing anything but the newest game if they want attention. I have seen plenty of post in the Skyrim forum when someone have been talking about how good Oblivion is that it is "pathetic" comparred to Morrowind. So, no the opinions on Oblivion haven't changed.

You find find it a generally better game. That is fine with me. The thing I have a little problem with is that you state that it has a better character creation as a fact without providing arguments. You may find the character creation deeper, but if you look at in from a neutral standpoint there is more to define you character because 1: the perks are limited in number and 2: the magica/health/stamine increases are also limited in number. It forces you to specialize, which again means you character is more defined.

There seems to be a certain amount of confusion in these discussions between "Character Creation" and "Character Development." Character Creation is the beginning process; it's where your character starts from. In Oblivion and Morrowind, it's the specific combination of Race, Major Skills, Birthsign, Gender, and Attributes that makes one starting character different from another.

Character Development is what happens during the story. Does your character learn to use weapons, or rely on magic? Every choice made as the game progresses has a part in Character Development.

From what I understand about Skyrim, its "Character Creation" system is quite limited, with all characters basically starting out much the same. Character Development, on the other hand, being tied to a Perk system, still has considerable freedom (although I would argue that it would be even freer if one could start from a less generic position.)

These debates might resolve to some extent, if there was a little more agreement on definitions.

Character Creation in Skyrim is you choose your character's name, race, gender, and what they look like. That is it. Nothing more. Aside from racial powers and skill bonuses like the high elves' extra magicka, or a wood elf's +10 to Archery, there is no difference between starting characters. Two characters of the same race are exactly alike statwise.

What I have found in my (almost) four months of playing Skyrim, is that I notice the absence of the old class-based character creation options for about the first hour or two. After that, I'm just playing away as I would Morrowind or Oblivion. I don't continue to think about it.

One reason I think this issue doesn't bother me as much as it does others is because I've never seen my chargen choices to be anything more than an interface with the game engine, instructing the game how I would like the game to compute my character's advancement. The numbers don't represent anything substantial, roleplaying-wise, about my character. They are numbers I input to control future leveling parameters. That's about it.

My roleplaying happens before and after chargen, not during. I tend to plan out my character's personalities in detail before chargen, sometimes over a period of weeks or months. By the time I'm ready for chargen my character has become too idiosyncratic to be represented by a few numbers - some of which, as raisable stats (Luck, Intelligence), make no sense to me anyway. And after chargen...well, I'm roleplaying. I'm not thinking about numbers.

A crazy idea occurred to me, perhaps because I enjoy a forum to talk about Oblivion instead of games that I don’t play.

What if we had a subforum designed to host discussions or comparisons of multiple TES games? Like when a topic such as this gets so horribly derailed into yet comparison of TES IV to TES Whatever. I even have a suggested name for such a subforum: The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion. Perhaps we could keep it here: http://www.gamesas.com/forum/26-the-elder-scrolls-series-discussion/

Am I the only one who comes here to talk about Oblivion – and only Oblivion? I find myself posting less and less on this forum because it is less and less about Oblivion. Just a thought.

Technically you're right, Acadian, OB General should be OB General. I intuited this issue a long while back.. Problem is the TES discussion forum has a lot of meanies who post there. Folks who show up and try to insult us for whatever reason. TES Discussion isn't as bad as the actual Sky forums, but it can get pretty nasty there.

I can't speak for others, but that's why I mainly wind up discussing here, sometimes. Personally, I jsut wanna talk about the games, I'm not looking for a fight.

It must be annoying for you and mirocu especially. I've been doing as much of my Skyrim talk over at Chorrol.com, personally. Slow forums, but 100% nice people, and I get to start as many threads as I like without having them bumped off the front page in a 10 minutes.

Renee, thanks for sharing your thoughts. You do help clear things up for me. This is a forum full of friends and I can understand sharing things with friends that stray beyond Oblivion, particularly if some of the other forums can get a bit fast and grumpy as you say. Thanks for indulging my little rant.

Tdroid, you asked me why I thought Oblivion had a deeper character build than Skyrim- I'd stated in this thread that the choices had been removed. You asked for documentation- OK,

Attributes are gone except for three areas, where they are homogenized and available for each player. Attribute growth along with abilities defines character developement- when they interact with the environment.. I don't really want to squabble about what constitutes a 'character'. Attributes helped the build considerably. Racial distinctions helped the build- they have been adjusted and watered down. NPC interaction helped the build- and Oblivion had more of it than Skyrim in the deal wheel, the merchant bargaining, and the conversation script offerings. Most NPC's in Skyrim repeat a line or two no matter what the character does- and in Oblivion, no matter how banol some found the conversations between NPC's- (How are you? Morrowind has always been a troubled place etc etc) the NPC's reacted to events made by the main character. They knew when he saved the world, they knew when his fame was high or infamy high, mages knew their own Guild master, and citizens even commented on current affairs amongst the guilds. That is NPC interaction and Oblivion had much more of it- they simply withdrew their efforts in Skyrim.

When you add all this up- how they worked together- the NPC interaction, attribute selection and growth, spell making and spells, you have a deeper build. A game with a deeper character build will last beyond your memorization of each new cave or hole you find. Diminishing the build means you are emphasizing events and geography- features. We lost choices we used to make. We lost spells we use to have, and abilities like acrobatics which would have been fantastic in a mountainess land.

It's not my opinion these things have been reduced- they are either reduced or missing. Where opinion comes in is whether or not you enjoy the perk system and find enough satisfaction there. Which is fine by me. The arrows hit harder, two hand dual wielding is nice, etc etc- there are some improvements.
That is what Bethesda thought, afterall- that more than enough folks wouldn't mind the losses. The features gained- advanced mechanical game play, graphics, perks and the 'smoother' and easier build, are not worth the trade-off for me. Todd Howard said spell making had to go because it introduced too many variables for the graphics to hold. He also once said he wouldn't have released Skyrim until the graphics were good enough, which tells you what he thinks is most important.
I have 500 hours in Skyrim, and three characters. At that point in Oblivion, I was just getting started. I'm through with Skyrim for a long while. The caves get boring. Yes. I know were it any other game 500 hours would be a stupendous investment/achievement- wasn't it lego that offered a 8-12 hour game last year? But this is Elder Scrolls.

So I think of Skyrim as a great action adventure game- Fallout 4 with swords and dragons instead of guns and deathclaws. Great game- not my direction. I want more character- not less. And i believe this makes Oblivion a greater all around RPG game. And I am sorry I didn't say 'RPG" when I posted earlier.

I'm afraid many fans are right when they say this is an industry wide trend.

Take care,
Grog

Renee Gade lll does it again- the truth.

It's better here than elsewhere. And Arcadian- you are right about there being a forum for comparing elder scrolls games.

I'm happy to talk about Oblivion- single greatest elder scrolls game. Oops- role playing game.

They've been on the front page for days now!

I think when I go back to Oblivion I'm going to remove all my mods and start over it was getting a little unstable at the end there. That's not going to be for a while though.

I know. It cracks me up. Makes me feel good, too, to see actual discussion being generated there without flaming or ....ya know...


That would be awesome. Would you just go pure vanilla or add mods as you go? Oh what am I saying...of course you'll add mods.


No problem. Also, Acadian, I actually did start a few threads here back when Skyrim was newer. I started them in OB: General where all my friends are, but because of the content which eventually slipped into these topics, they'd wind up getting moved to TES Discussion. And then guess what? The actual discussion in those threads (we're only talking of a couple threads, now) dies off. Or some meanies show up.