Can daedric princes die forever?

Post » Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:59 pm

I know that daedric princes can be banished back to oblivion but what happens if they die in oblivion are they gone or do they come back to life in a different place in oblivion or is it just impossible for them to die in oblivion because they're so powerful?
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Life long Observer
 
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Post » Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:30 pm

They live in Oblivion, and, as gods, I don't believe they can die. However, when a Daedric Prince is banished back to Oblivion, they are merely banished from Nirn and placed back in their individual realms. Mehrunes Dagon's deadlands and the Shivering Isles are the realms of Daedric Princes within Oblivion. When Mehrunes Dagon was banished to Oblivion, he didn't die, he was just sent back to his own realm and he was forbidden from returning to Nirn, for now, at least.
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Kristian Perez
 
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Post » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:46 am

Short answer: No. Even in Oblivion, you are simply consigning their spirits to the Void. Take, for instance the Golden Saints/Seducers of the Shivering Isles. They have said that when they 'die' in Oblivion, their spirit is hurled into the Void of Oblivion where they wander alone and aimless while they find their way back to an anchor (Principality).

Even on the larger scale of Princes, you can't kill an idea and you can't destroy a concept. Mehrunes Dagon is there when you burn down a barn, when there is a new advance, when a natural disaster strikes. He may not have four arms and carry a giant axe, but he is still there. Can you truly get rid of this kind of Mehrunes Dagon? No. What makes you think, then, that you can get rid of completely the version that does have four arms?
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amhain
 
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Post » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:09 pm

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you get rid od that version by making it more effective for natural disaters to be controlled by somebody with but two arms
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dell
 
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Post » Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:34 pm

Hmm... Of course the generic answer is no, they only get sent back to Oblivion, but you already know that. I agree that they are also concepts, but that raises the question of whether they exist because those concepts exist, or do those concepts exist because they exist? If Dagon never squirmed his way out of the Gray Maybe, would there be such a concept as destruction/revolution? Just because they happen to correspond with real life concepts, that doesn't mean the Tes world has to have these things, though that is questionable in the metaphysical sense. But I digress.

I suppose that if you were to strike them down somehow while in their realm that one of two things must happen: they will reappear in their realm as if they were killed on Nirn, or they will not. If they do not, we can only guess where they would end up, perhaps Aetherius? Or maybe even returned back to the duality of Anu/Padomay, back to the chaos of before they formed into gods?

The truth is that we don't know, it is an entirely hypothetical situation that has never been done in lore. Not to say it is impossible, but wouldn't the gods just have destroyed Jyggylag or Lorkhan entirely if they could? Why go through all the complicated banishments if they could just destroy them?

So, my final answer is: not likely.
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Guy Pearce
 
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Post » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:28 am

I agree that they are also concepts, but that raises the question of whether [concepts] exist because those concepts exist, or do those concepts exist because [concepts] exist?

hehe
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Felix Walde
 
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Post » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:09 am

Hmm... Of course the generic answer is no, they only get sent back to Oblivion, but you already know that. I agree that they are also concepts, but that raises the question of whether they exist because those concepts exist, or do those concepts exist because they exist? If Dagon never squirmed his way out of the Gray Maybe, would there be such a concept as destruction/revolution? Just because they happen to correspond with real life concepts, that doesn't mean the Tes world has to have these things, though that is questionable in the metaphysical sense. But I digress.

I suppose that if you were to strike them down somehow while in their realm that one of two things must happen: they will reappear in their realm as if they were killed on Nirn, or they will not. If they do not, we can only guess where they would end up, perhaps Aetherius? Or maybe even returned back to the duality of Anu/Padomay, back to the chaos of before they formed into gods?

The truth is that we don't know, it is an entirely hypothetical situation that has never been done in lore. Not to say it is impossible, but wouldn't the gods just have destroyed Jyggylag or Lorkhan entirely if they could? Why go through all the complicated banishments if they could just destroy them?

So, my final answer is: not likely.


It's implied once that all gods existed for all time, but some of them had no meaning before the Mundus. For instance Arkay, a god of life, was once the god of "nobody really cares", since there were no mortals back then. So it seems that on Tamriel, the Daedra and Aedra are eternal, and some of them exist even when their sphere of influence is meaningless, such as in the absence of mortals.
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aisha jamil
 
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Post » Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:09 pm

/\

you get rid od that version by making it more effective for natural disaters to be controlled by somebody with but two arms


Mehrunes Dagon is inextricably linked with Destruction and all that. Shivering Isles proved that: the avatar changed bodies, but the Daedra and likely the look stayed the same.
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Poetic Vice
 
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Post » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:07 am

I agree that they are also concepts, but that raises the question of whether they exist because those concepts exist, or do those concepts exist because they exist?
I don't agree that they are concepts, because the concept that they are concepts isn't conceptually good enough by half. I prefer them to be passionate.
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Sara Johanna Scenariste
 
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Post » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:19 pm

Even on the larger scale of Princes, you can't kill an idea and you can't destroy a concept. Mehrunes Dagon is there when you burn down a barn, when there is a new advance, when a natural disaster strikes. He may not have four arms and carry a giant axe, but he is still there. Can you truly get rid of this kind of Mehrunes Dagon? No. What makes you think, then, that you can get rid of completely the version that does have four arms?


Very well put!

Try destroying love, apathy, gluttony, remorse.... they're things we experience. Daedra are just the metaphysical representation of those things.
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Jennifer Munroe
 
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Post » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:55 pm

Well the series has already shown that if you kill a Prince in his own realm he wont die. Cause Mehnrunes is killed at the end of Battlespire in his own realm, yet he comes back in oblivion still.

It was my opinion that they are cast into the void like any other daedra, but due to there power they often find their way back a lot quicker.
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Petr Jordy Zugar
 
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Post » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:18 am

from what i remember i think someone in the game said that cyrodil was once a plane of oblivion until the gods killed its prince
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john palmer
 
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Post » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:08 am

Very well put!

Try destroying love, apathy, gluttony, remorse.... they're things we experience. Daedra are just the metaphysical representation of those things.


http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#18
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Lory Da Costa
 
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Post » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:59 pm

Daedra princes are Et'Ada, and several Et'Ada were killed in the process of creating Nirn, weren't they?

So yes, Daedra princes can die.. but only if they're stupid enough to get involved in something crazy like the pact of creation.
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Jeremy Kenney
 
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Post » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:51 am

No, no, no. Creation is what saved them from mediocrity and probable death. As long as they are remembered, they are alive, as Dumbkid pointed out.
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stevie critchley
 
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Post » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:36 pm

Daedra princes are Et'Ada, and several Et'Ada were killed in the process of creating Nirn, weren't they?



They're not dead - they're only MOSTLY dead. :P
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yessenia hermosillo
 
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Post » Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:37 pm

They're not dead - they're only MOSTLY dead. :P

Unless you are on Earthbone.
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Etta Hargrave
 
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Post » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:03 am

Unless you are on Earthbone.


In that case, it depends on how you define "dead". Being a part of a living planet could arguably be construed as a form of life.
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carley moss
 
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Post » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:02 pm

By that logic I won't "die" either since my materials will be recycled into other things :P
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Angel Torres
 
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Post » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:16 am

I know that daedric princes can be banished back to oblivion but what happens if they die in oblivion are they gone or do they come back to life in a different place in oblivion or is it just impossible for them to die in oblivion because they're so powerful?

can Destruction as it is die forever? if so, then technically, Dagon can die forever. technically. can Madness die forever? if so, then technically, Sheo can die forever. technically. and so on :D .

but then again, what was already said about them being and not being because of mortals.

i'd imagine that Anu and Padomai(spelling?) are the entirety of all the concepts and Destruction, being once of the concepts, is a part of those two, be it used or not? if not used, Dagon is "dead". if used, Dagon is "alive". i think the closest you can come to destroying Dagon is twisting and reforming and reshaping and re-whatever the whole concept of Destruction until it no longer hold any property attributable to Destruction. if that can be achieved, then when so achieved, Dagon will then be as close to being dead as he can be. or just revert to being his former jumping king self :P .

By that logic I won't "die" either since my materials will be recycled into other things :P
but see, the materials are not all of you, they are a part of you, but not the total you. i think for TES, its, roughly, like this: material=body, everything else about you=soul. i think even in TES, its dust to dust so it can later be recycled and used for someone else's body. then what remains of you, call it 'soul', jest off to Dreamsleave(spellling?) to be stripped of you as much as that is possible, and after that, another 'person' is born on Nirn when some of that recycled dust is infused with the 'soul' . think 'soul'=clean data storage device, 'you'=data stored on it, and 'body'=a robot that for a while gets the data storage device wired into its circuits. eh, not sure how accurate of anology that is, though.

and i guess with Prince, it jets off to their own Dreamsleave(spelling?) equivalent, i donno.
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Add Me
 
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Post » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:38 am

Hm, the thing that Dagon is destruction and if you destroy destruction then Dagon does not exist anymore... Does that work the other way around? Without Dagon then there is no destruction? Since then Malacath is pretty interesting...

Malacath is the Daedric prince whose sphere is the patronage of the spurned and ostracized.

So before Malacath existed no-one was ostracized or spurned? Correct? Since that would be very interesting...
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Dawn Porter
 
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Post » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:39 am

Walter:
That's a bit of a straw-man argument. Malacanth is the patron of the spurned because he became basically the patron Prince of the orcs, which were his followers (which were considered dissidents, as was Trinimac/Malacath) before the Aldmeri hero Trinimac was eaten by Boethiah and changed into what we now know as Malacath. His followers changed into the orcs just as Trinimac changed in Malacath. That is why he is also known as the patron of the spurned.

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/truenatureoforcs.shtml
http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/changed_ones.shtml
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benjamin corsini
 
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Post » Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:47 am

Yes. Daedric princes can die forever.

Now there is allot to explain here but first things first. From the Monomyth the world started out as a turbulent grey maybe. Ideas ebbed and flowed. Spirits were eaten by Satakal and a few other metaphors about things not lasting incredibly long. Then Auriel came along and ended that mess. Then Lorkhan came by and reinstated the mess. From the Teachings, Nirn was a return to that flux. In it a bunch of spirits died and became proper gods and this quaint notion of mortals appeared. Which is strange really because during the Dawn of the Aurbis, every et'Ada was already mortal.

So yes, et'Ada can die. So Daedric Princes being et'Ada can die.

But that's not the end of it. As shown with the creation of Mundus, them Daedra don't want to die. So while it's possible for them to die. They do not do it. So now the question is: How do we kill them forever? Well that's easy too in theory. The creation of Mundus didn't just affect those who participated. By the creation of Mundus new Daedra appeared and others were changed. Mehrunes (Aldudagga), Sheogorath (Faith in the Empire), Hermaus Mora (Census of Daedra). Now like Auriels Walkabout was a concept that changed the nature of the Aurbis, so was the creation of Mundus.

The only thing to do is create an original concept that will shift the paradigm by which all other concepts exists in such a way that this concepts are either irrelevant or warped and mixed so much that they no longer can be passed of as the real thing.

So really. Daedric princes can't die forever. Not without destroying everything else.

Well unless some one comes up with the tactical nuke version of this nuke it from its orbit approach.
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Eileen Collinson
 
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Post » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:29 am

so nuke them all, or snipe one of them out, by coming up with, and introducing into existence, a Concept X that renders pointless, or undermines the importance of, and or a need for, the Destruction, Madness, etc... right? :D
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Andrew Lang
 
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Post » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:19 am

so nuke them all, or snipe one of them out, by coming up with, and introducing into existence, a Concept X that renders pointless, or undermines the importance of, and or a need for, the Destruction, Madness, etc... right? :D


Hm... if everyone would worship Sheogorath and become insane then they wouldnt been mad... or insane... or different... or something... So Sheogorath must always make sure that atleast less than half the population of Nirn worships Him... otherwise the rest of the population is insane and then he must help everyone back into sanity...

Or is that just wishful thinking?
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Carlos Rojas
 
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