The disposition wheel svcked! I liked Skyrim's approach with more persuade,bribe and intimidate in dialogue. Also i believe the NPC has 4 ranks of disposition towards you, seen some mods that uses that system and i think its based of the games asset. In that case i would consider it a simpler version of the disposition wheel each rank counting for 25 points. I would agree that what race you choose in TES does not count for much, and i feel it has been equal in all games since Morrowind. When i played an Altmer in Skyrim i did get alot of reactions from Stormcloak Soldiers and Nords in general. So the reactivity is there, its just not that well done. I recently played Oblivion and i honestly can't remember people reacting to me beeing a Dunmer. Maybe i wasn't paying attention.

Skills are in guys. Perks have been merged with things like building your settlement and modding guns, but your good old fashioned energy weapons and lockpicking skills are here to stay. If you look in gameplay videos of the bobble-head stands you can see the rows for skills, along with a few bobble-heads in his inventory. But for perks like "Gun Nut" you can create things like sentry guns in your settlement once you reach the right rank, or an advanced sight for your gun. It's an improvement on things, without taking away or changing skills at all

Didn't like the "bribe intimidate persuade" thing because it was pretty random just like in F3 (where with 100 speech you had 73 percent chance of succes).

Agree with the rest.

To me it makes more sense. Even if you are a very charismatic individual you can't sway everyone. Someone will always refuse to listen to reason, people with a moral compass won't take a bribe and not everyone is a pushover for the intimidate option to work. Just my take on it though, it is why i didn't like speech that much in Fallout New Vegas, it was just simply overpowered.

"I give you a piece of wheat and now I am your friend forever and can loot your house" is not disposition. Disposition was removed.

Race most certainly did matter in Morrowind and in Oblivion it was at least acknowledged in dialogue. In Skyrim there are places where NPC's just assume you're a Nord. Or when the carriage rider tells a Kahjiit about Elsewyer, that's a fun one. Altmer looking out of their nipbles will never cease to annoy me. Race in Skyrim is purely cosmetic.

Skyrim is not deep in different ways. Many RPG elements were removed and nothing took its place.

Then why is there no longer a "Skills" tab in the http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/7/72/Fallout4_E3_PipBoy.png/revision/latest?cb=20150615125852? Where would you logically look at your skill levels if not in the STAT section between "SPECIAL" and "Perks"?

I'm not commenting either way on the change, it's BSG's prerogative to make whatever tweaks they like, and I trust they want to make a good game. I'm just saying, that screenshot makes it pretty clear that Skills are not completely unchanged. We know that there are bobble-heads related to former skills (like Barter), but I suspect that Barter has become a ranked perk like we already know Science has.

Anyway, the Quakecon Fallout 4 presentation starts in less than two hours, so hopefully there will be new information soon.

No I'm not saying the disposition wheel was good, it was boring, only good was Khajiit facial reactions

But it made it much easier to observe behavior changes.

Persuade,bribe and intimidate was just an way to move forward in quests in Skyrim I do not think it affected behavior.

Your race affect some dialogue responses no not think it matter outside this

NPC has more that 4 ranks but think 4 is most used, the others are hostile or special like wife.

The problem with the fixed disposition level is that it has to be changed by script after specified events, an 1-100 value can be done in small steps like you do radiant quest or even killing enemies gives reputation. Not you are suddenly an minor nobility after doing 3 quests.

Race isn't purely cosmetic as you say it is - that's ignoring the specific bonuses that each race provided to various playstyles...

It's half baked, but the method of doing the Diplomatic Immunity quest line as an Altmer was very different than a Nord doing it, for example. Certainly would have been nice to see more examples of this throughout the game, though.

Because when you start with https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Cow_female_black_white.jpg labelled "Cow", and then go to http://pngimg.com/upload/cow_PNG2141.png labelled "Duck", http://pngimg.com/upload/cow_PNG2141.png is a cow.

In Fallouts 1 through 3, skills are represented by percentages. For Fallout 4, if Bethesda had only replaced the percentages with ranks, but kept skills in a separate list labeled "Skills", then nobody would be saying that skills are gone

Right, I'm not at all suggesting that the function of skills has been removed, just that "Skills" are gone, merged with "Perks". I was responding to NorahRittle's claim that "Skills" are still present, unchanged and separate from "Perks". There are no more 1-100 scores in Guns, Energy Weapons, Lockpick, etc. There are Perks, chosen one per level-up, some of which may represent skill in such pursuits as guns, energy weapons, lockpicking, etc.

What we've seen so far makes me think you're right, but that the stat-heavy part will be in the weapons themselves; which will require a good amount of character investment to craft. That might be how they're balancing RPG and FPS, although we'll definitely be able to go through the game just fine without crafting a thing.

People are sort of in denial about skills now. There's really no reason for them to take skills out of the game if they were going to completely replace them with perks. That would be a step backwards.

I just like cows, and I had an opening.

You didn't seem to mean that skills are gone, so I don't know what made me quote you, but it was probably too much creative editing (on my part). NorahRittle's post began with "Skills are in guys." Yours began with "Then why is there no longer a 'Skills' tab in the Pipboy?" Put the two openings together and voila! If I had read NorahRittle's post through to the end, I doubt I would have commented.

The only purpose for skills in an RPG is to indicate personal PC ability and fallibility. When you remove those ~then skills are gone.

But what about a system that uses a variety of perks to indicate personal PC ability and fallibility? Not true Fallout, maybe, but doesn't it still work?

Perks are binary; there is no fallibility in binary; only refusal or permission.

Perks in the Fallout series were never skills, they were sanctioned cheats to a common rule system. It was a neat concept, and worked well I thought.

Perks bent rules.

I believe skills are essentially gone. I highly doubt that a perk like "gun nut" will have any impact on weapon damage outside of the mods it gives you access to. There also wouldn't be a reason to give a person "gun nut" and then another perk that impacts "small guns" in the same way skills did in Fallout 3. I doubt you will be able to rely on sneak perks the same way you did a maxed out sneak skill in Fallout 3 and New Vegas. If you can't actually stay quiet and out of site I doubt you will be able to sneak at all in Fallout 4.

The whole, 40 or 80 thing really comes down to giving a 100 point skill system more meaning than it really needs. Meaning that it's really complexity for complexities sake, and really unnecessary. You could reduce it, but that still begs the question, "what is the difference between 1-100, 1-20, 1-10, or 0-4?" Complexity, and not necessarily purpose. At 0-4 every level has purpose and when you buy a level in Gun Nut, it adds a new list of things you are capable of making. Where as 1-10 or 1-20 would be getting one or two new mods/level (that you have a greater chance of not caring about), and not being any more less complex for complexities sake. At 1-100, there are points where you will spend a point in Speech and will do nothing for you, there will possibly be points where spending 5 points in ability won't really do anything for you. So, if you are designing a system that takes skill purpose into account, you want to make it as tight as possible. WhiteWolf does this with 0-5, each skill level has a purpose and gives you a greater chance of success. This generally requires you to bring skills and 'perks' more in line with each other like in WhiteWolf.

Skills certainly are a way to define a character, but not the only way. Perks, Special, in-game interactions, and other play-style elements make a character as much as skills. As in many Table-top RPGs, where a character is more defined by an outline of how it perceives the world or how it might react to things in the game.

I've played two Table-Top RPGs that the average human was ranked at around 4 out of 10 (BESM and WhiteWolf), so I feel this is actually pretty awesome, as I won't feel like I've started as an average hero rank that I'd be in many table-top RPGs. Additionally, why I use Table-Top as an example more than video games, is that there is a lot more innovation in Role-Playing Games in the Table Top market than the Video Game one, therefore more ideas for handling of rule changes can be reviewed. This is why I am more comfortable with BGS trying out new systems, as I know that new systems can be better than old ones. Some have pretty complex worlds systems that got way better with simplification. This also leads me to believe that FPS elements in an RPG aren't antithetical to said RPG and in Fallout 4's case I feel it will make the game more immersive (which is what you want in an RPG, is to be more immersed in your characters interactions with the world).

As a veteran of build-point RPGs, where you get maybe one improvement/session, it's actually not that bad, as it keeps power-leveling to a minimum and makes choices at the beginning more important. It also means you get to role-play weakness and strengths better. I'd also rather spend less time in a ability select screen, and more time using my newly attained abilities, this doesn't mean I want to get rid of said screen, but make each selection matter and give me the freedom to choose when I enter said screen.

No matter what many of the 'Old Guard' says, Fallout 4 is still an RPG first, it may not be the kind of RPG you like, but it is an RPG with Shooter dominant mechanics in place of dominant RNG combat mechanics. Most of the rest of the game involves you interacting with the world, building a unique character, deciding elements of your background, deciding how you will interact with the world, and how you will improve your character. Perks will still have a large impact, in fact larger, and I feel better than skills in the previous 2 games. I really liked Skyrims lock-picking, because it didn't stop you from trying to pick any lock, but it got easier and less expensive with a higher skill and more perks. I hope this'll be true with Perception (possibly Agility) and the Infiltrator perk.

As for rationality, there are some people who seem to stick their fingers in their ears when others offer a reasonable argument, on 'both sides'. I at least have very good reasons to feel excited about the new system, where as I've seen people say the new system is an abomination, because it isn't RPG enough (25 years and 30+ different RPGs of experience, says it is) or an FPS with RPG elements.

We don't know this for fact yet. We should wait until the game releases, and it actually gets played, before prejudging it.

It has all the qualities of an RPG. But, yes, you're right we should wait before passing judgement...

*This is at least what I subscribe to when I make these assertions: http://sinisterdesign.net/what-makes-an-rpg-an-rpg-a-universal-definition/

That article lists Arcanum as a realtime gem. Arcanum is a turn based game, with game breaking realtime combat tacked on for reasons of market pressure.

*So far, I've agreed with most of what I've seen in there; skimming through it.

** I disagree with the alchemist story; that was looking good, until the author tried to shoot it down.

k? It doesn't need to hit every checkpoint on the list, most would constitute as being enough.

*My eyesight must be terrible but I don't remember reading anything about Arcanum in the article...is it mentioned by a different name?