You forgot the ' I also poop rainbows' :biggrin:

What do you look for in games? What's your favorite game outside of TES series?

Hear hear! After seeing Bethesda's runup to Oblivion, then seeing the actual game, my only surprise is that there's not a lot more "Yeah yeah, we've heard this [censored] before" about anything Todd and Pete start gushing on about and telling us how great it's going to be. :shrug:

Well, every game has potential flaws, and no one is ever going to be completely satisfied with any game. Obviously, Bethesda can't please everyone--especially with such a wide-range of opinions. For instance, you thought Oblivion was a disaster, while I thought it was the best video game ever made. No one is wrong--it's just a difference of perspective.

So, if someone takes one misstep, that suddenly becomes their track record? And you have no reason whatsoever to assume that they'll make a general improvement...oh, except for that they admit that Oblivion a lot away from what made Morrowind special and they said they were looking to return to the Morrowind style of adventure, they're added a carriage system similar to silt striders, and they want Skyrim to be a bit more alien in the way that Morrowind was.

So yeah, you totally have no reason to assume that at all except for everything that has been said is to the contrary.

I really don't know what more you want.

I wonder why there are so many uncritical fans here...which is a very mild description for the type of person I'm talking about. Looking at new images, trailers or discussing the latest previews is nice of course. And of course it's fine to say when you like something. 'The distant landscape looks awesome!', 'The dragons look cool!' or 'The world seems to be much more alive than in previous games!'. I have no problem with that as I look forward to the the game just like everyone else here. And I don't think that everything about Skyrim is bad, overall it will be a game I love, a game that will be better than previous ES games - at least with mods that fix the things I dislike.

But why is it not allowed to discuss things you don't like so far? Or discuss things that you feel are missing? A huge amount of people here become offended instantly as soon as you criticize something about their beloved soon-to-be holy grail of games.

While Bethesda obviously makes great games overall (at least for those people who like to play this type of game and thus frequent this forum) they also do a lot of things wrong. Of course this is in most cases a matter of taste, but if there is really someone who thinks that either Morrowind or Oblivion were flawless games then I can't take him/her seriously. To me Morrowind had a lot of flaws, some big ones and a lot of small ones. In Oblivion it was the same. There is no reason to believe that Skyrim will be any different. Certainly they'll fix some things that were wrong in Oblivion, but they won't fix everything and it's also likely that the new stuff they introduce will generate new problems.

If there is a good amount of information about a certain subject then I think it's valid to discuss it and say whether you like or dislike the way it comes across in previews/trailers/screenshots. Screaming 'They still have 6 months before the game is released!' (which is nothing and even if there was more time it wouldn't mean they will fix every single 'problem' forum users may find) or ''We don't have enough information yet!' (which is not true in most cases) is just silly.

A forum where everyone is just a 'yea-sayer' or a cheerleader would not only be incredibly boring, it would be idiotic. I've seen only few trolls or flamers around here who criticize the game for no reason at all, but lots of angry 'uncritical fans' who jump at everyone who criticizes even the most obvious flaws in the game.

The game will be great, but it will still have a lot of flaws. Some rather big ones and a lot of small ones. That's a realistic expectation. If I see/read something I don't like in previews then I think it's valid to discuss it here. And not just assume everything will be fantastic and perfect. It might even help the developers to do some last minute fixes in some cases which they wouldn't do if everyone was saying 'It's perfect!'.

Amen. This is basically why all the morrowind people are the way they are - we all put a crapload of faith in bethesda, and they sold us short in a lot of ways. All those who didn't understand, surely should now.

What about those of us who think Daggerfall is the best in the series and Morrowind should have been better?

I have no doubt that Skyrim will be an improvement upon Oblivion. None at all. If you have listened to their latest podcast you hear all about the issues that occured with Oblivion, most notably the fact that they couldn't get the console specs until REALLY late and had to do all sorts of careful things to work around all the possibilities as well as dealing with the companies and the extra stress. Also, working with dialogue, which they had never done before, and trying to fit it right onto the disc, and Radiant AI (which was totally new) being very difficult to balance. They have said that despite it being somewhat pressured, the pressure for Skyrim is nowhere near what is was for Oblivion at the same time, because they had a lot less to deal with. They were less organised with Oblivion than in MW or Skyrim, and I believe they are definitely getting back on track.

EDIT: Still critical when needed, though!

I love you. You love me. We are a happy family.

:disco:

Of course Skyrim isn't going to be perfect. Oblivion and Morrowind weren't perfect either, and to assume that just because some of us consider it the best game that we are stupid or that we are unaware of its imperfections is to go a little over-board. But to do nothing but complain doesn't solve anyone's problems, and no game will ever be perfect. I think to expect perfection and total satisfaction is expecting way too much.

Joke for the day "A pessimist is just an Optimist with experience". That is all.

Also perfection is impossible.

I have alot of games that I play outside of TES, Splinter Cell series, Assassin's Creed series, Half Life series. I like all kinds of games, FPS's, sports games, thinking games like Portal 2, racing game like TDU 2.

What do I look for in a game? It all depends on which genre of game I'm playing. If I'm playing TES, I want a game that makes me think and lets me create my own character and immerse myself into the game, not hold my hand from point a to point b and give me so much information that I no longer have to think about what I'm doing.

If I'm playing an FPS, I'm looking for the "Fun" value and the "Enjoyment" value. I'm also looking at the graphics, as those are important to FPS games. Those same criteria pretty much are used in any other game that I'm playing, other than TES RPG's. The story line is also important in some games, more than others. When it comes to RPG's I only play TES because no other RPG is as wide open and expansive as TES. No other RPG let's me play 7 different races or is as wide open as TES.

If I had to nail down a favorite game outside of TES it would have to be Splinter Cell, because I love the story line and up until the latest game I enjoyed the game play. Eidos did the same crap that Bethesda did with Oblivion, they Dumbed Down Splinter Cell Conviction to where the game itself was just a hollow shell of the former games.


Morrowind and Daggerfall are 1 and 2 in my list of favorite games of all times. Daggerfall was great in the depth and scope that the game was. Morrowind was more unique and less "Cookie Cuttter" like.

I liked Morrowind better, but I also liked Daggerfall and those 2 games were the BEST of TES..

Exactly. Thank you... :clap:

However, being optimistic isn't a bad thing. But I like to give Bethesda a little more credit, that they have realized many of their past mistakes, and that they will fix them. Of course, there will be more mistakes, but the developers are only human. If people want to be that critical of the games Bethesda has made, I'd like to see those same people try to do better--assuming they could even do half as well.

When you have only ever taken four steps, missing one is most definitely a large dint in your 'track record' (which is much too succinct a term as it is).
While they have spoke about oblivion not being as good as it could have been, and a return to morrowinds 'atmosphere' (I think was the word used), a lot of the stuff they have announced reminds me horribly of the pre-oblivion stuff - I remember seeing stuff about no more medium armour, and a merging of the long and short blade skills, and I wholeheartedly believed it would not negatively impact the game. Low and behold, when I got it, I realised quickly it had impacted the game negatively.
How, then, can you not understand that for those people, upon hearing of things in skyrim being cut or streamlined, it instantly makes them think back to all the things they took out that made oblivion less good?

dragonborn1 said - 'What about those of us who think Daggerfall is the best in the series and Morrowind should have been better?' -

What about those people? I'm not really sure what you are trying to insinuate? Those people have just as much right as anyone to be critical, even more so than those that came to tes with morrowind...

Duh, notice i FIRST said track record, then specified what I was talking bout in that track record as its the only part I've personally experienced.

And yea, they admit and they've said they wanna give a more unique feel, which is all fine and dandy, but they also talked OB up a whole bunch, and it certainly didn't help much in the end. And aye, I am very VERY happy about the carriage system, but besides that, all you've said "they've said they're wanna do X" yea, but before I see some more specific features in this direction (such as the carriage system) I do not have any reason to assume they'll do it. They still haven't explained just how they'll make up for taking out acrobatics, nor have they yet to announce more armor slots. Once they clear those two up I'll gladly put myself in the "hyped" camp again, but right now, I'm not all tha cheerful.

EDIT: Not to mention the UI that as it stands now, looks as dreadful as the UI for OB was on the PC.

For those discussing optimism and pessimism, it's bad to be an optimist and it's bad to be a pessimist. You need to be both. It's called being a realist.


How does "a return to Morrowind-style" make you think of Oblivion? It's like they took that misstep, then openly said "Oops! I took a misstep! I'm going to learn from that and get myself back on track!" and you're just completely expecting them to make that same misstep.

But honestly, if you thought removing Medium Armor and merging the Blade skills hurt the gameplay, then I guess you're right to be prepared to be disappointed by Skyrim. I thought they were silly and redundant in Morrowind and was pleased to see them go in Oblivion.

No one is telling you to be overly cheerful and optimistic. My position is that until you've played it, you shouldn't think too highly or too lowly of it. I'm just saying, give it a chance. I'm disappointed by all the time people spend complaining about things before they really know how they will impact the game. Yes, it might be a bad impact--but maybe, just maybe, it will have a good impact. If you don't think Skyrim is going to be better than Oblivion, and you think Oblivion was awful, then I just don't see why you are even here in the first place.

EDIT: And like Velorien, I found the medium armor skills and the longblade/shortblade skills redundant. I, too, was happy to see them go.

i think good fans criticise their favourite franchise so that it improves but i feel from what ive read about skyrim they are going to make an impressive RPG

First of all, where exactly do I claim that I think Skyrim will be terrible, or even Oblivion? I said Oblivion was a major disapointment, which it was, but it was a decent game still. And when it comes to Skyrim, all I've said is that recent announcements have made my general stance towards the game go down, I have not said I think it'll svck, only that right now I'm quite critical.

ANd why am I here? really? Why to get the very information we are talking about, how else am I expected to form an opinion?

Edit: I never even mentioned medium armor and long/short blade skills in my post.

The time to criticize the game is now, before it's been released.

A little bit of criticism is one thing, but some of the people here are being so negative and so critical, that they appear not to think Bethesda is capable of making a good RPG. If that's how they feel, then they are not good fans. Good fans will always give you the benefit of the doubt.



The thing about medium armor was about Velorien's comment, which I had not seen while I was making my last post. It wasn't directed at you, but at the person they were speaking to.

As far as what you've said about Oblivion, maybe you did like the game, but you are not giving that impression at all. Your previous posts have made it sound like you completely disliked it. If that is not the case, you might want to think about how you are wording things a little bit. :shrug:

Yeah they took a misstep, openly said 'Opps! I took a misstep', and then told us they've removed attributes, birthsigns, athletics and acrobatics. Last time they removed a bunch of stuff, I thought 'nah, it'll still be as good as the last one!', and it wasn't. Can you then see, how I might not be as willing to believe that again? Todd literally is the boy who cried wolf.

Concerning merging blade skills etc, I just didn't see the need. I always think the more customization the better, especially in an rpg! I could list other things they 'streamlined' from morrowind to oblivion too - no clothing under armour, or robes on top of armour, no crossbows, staves, spears blah blah blah.. I could go on for a while here...

p.s - I find it hard to imagine an optimistic realist, as by definition a realist considers no flights of fancy whatsoever - otherwise how could he ever determine truth? : P. Optimism is simply being positive about future events with no inclination that future events will be positive - not a good trait to have when attempting to determine the true quality of a thing.

Not everyone is a complete optimist or a complete pessimist. What Velorien is saying is that it is healthy to be more in the middle. Pessimists seem to think nothing will ever go right, which is just as harmful as thinking things will always go well.

Good fans will tell you when you screwed up and stick around afterwards to make sure you realize you screwed up. A good developer listens to their fans when their fans say they screwed up and thens comes back with something better.

So far, I haven't seen better. I've seen the same as before. I want to be wrong, I really do. So far nothing have given me any evidence that I am.