Well, even with the Golden Skin, there are the questions of whether that was intentional or an accidental bonus, and whether, if it was intentional, it was in the end a failure because they were then wholly under the control of any non-Dwemer who held the Mantella, and, of course, why.

Also, "deserved" never has anything to do with anything. Just for the record. especially in the sort of mythic arc that TES uses for its lore.

You're right that there's no damning evidence that they failed, and I can actually make a fairly decent argument that they succeeded (which is why I say my article needs an addendum).

As for Kagrenac, it's not a matter of too little planning or not doublechecking his work, it's a matter of being forced to act before he was ready, and being forced to act in a panic.

Imagine if you were taking a test and expected to have an hour to take it, but then thirty minutes in the teacher told you you have two-minutes to finish - even if you had planned perfectly for an hour test and knew the answers do you think you'd still pass after that stunt had been pulled?

Kagrenac wasn't expecting to have to turn in his test when he did.
Neither got higher than CHIM.

The Tribunal achieved what they set out to, they usurped their anticipations and ruled as god-kings for almost the entirety of history up-to-date; then Vivec took it a step further with CHIM and Seht possibly made literal truth his city being called "Sotha Sil".

The Tribunal were powerful enough to achieve what we've only seen Akatosh himself manage to date.

Totally beside the point, I know, but I actually do much better on tests than most other work, and work best under pressure. (In fact, considering I'm such a procrastinator, I only work at all under pressure.)

Ever since one of my math teachers in Elementary School once said you can tell who actually knows the material by who finishes in what order, I always took tests as much as a speed competition than anything else, anyway.

Of course, maybe it's just that I'm a smug bastard who could coast through school entirely on a good memory and as such never particularly developed good studying habits, but it wouldn't be entirely beyond the realm of possibility that Kagrenac was something similar. I mean, Chief Tonal Architect isn't exactly a "fallback job". He had to have had competition, and he had to have risen above them. It's safe to assume the valedictorian of the tonal architecture class was good at proving himself under pressure.

You're right, that was totally beside the point.

Again, the project was not ready at that point and he was forced to act in haste.

Apotheosis really seems like the sort of project one should approach carefully.

What sources do we have that we can confirm that, though? The Battle of Red Mountain is dripping with epic storytelling trappings, and rather notably omits the part where Nerevar dies, and Vivec might not necessarily be the best narrator of the events that took place there.

I've seen these discussions before take the tack that Kagrenac was not like some sort of action film character, teleporting out of danger only at the moment that the blade was descending upon his neck, but rather that the war was an irrelevant sideshow to Kagrenac's research, and if Kagrenac had needed a couple more days of stalemate, the Dwemer forces would have been able to give it to him - he only proceeded with his plan because he felt he was ready to enact it, and, as this was the culmination of their entire society's history, the Dwemer people dropped everything, even the war that was threatening to wipe them out, to bring the plan to fruition.

This is a theory which i build out of only small knowledge but i would like to know what you think about it.

First lets say that the dwemer worshiped Hermaeus mora whos plane in oblivion is a endless library with all forbidden knowledge. Then say that the dwemer tried to achieve godhood and was close to uncover the forbidden knowledge about that but then Hermaeus mora turned them to ash piles which are seen in a dwemer ruin during the tribunal expansion (the ash piles are close to weapons and armors).

Now jump forward to Skyrim this is just to strengthen my theory this will include some spoilers:

During Hermaeus quest in Skyrim you are tasked with collecting blood from the elven races in Skyrim to create a substitute for dwemer blood (how could the quest giver know this without the help from Hermaeus) when that have been collected and the quest giver is about to uncover a secret he is turned to an ash pile by Hermaeus mora ( the quest giver was a follower of Hermaeus).

This makes me think that the dwemer was destroyed by Hermaeus mora because they where close to uncover the secret of godhood, but as said this is just a lose theory.

"By refreshing my memory with "Divine Metaphysics," I believe I can explain. The Dwemer were not unified in their thinking. Kagrenac and his tonal architects, among them Bthuand Mzahnch, believed they could improve the Dwemer race. Others argued that the attempt would be too great a risk. The war with Nerevar and the Dunmer may have led Kagrenac to carry out his experiments prematurely. Although this book argues that nothing disastrous could result, the disappearance of my race argues otherwise."--Yagrum Bagarn

"There, Nerevar the Chimer King met Dumac the Dwarf King and they both collapsed from grievous wounds and draining magics. With Dumac fallen, and threatened by Dagoth Ur and others, Kagrenac turned his tools upon the Heart, and Nerevar said he saw Kagrenac and all his Dwemer companions at once disappear from the world."--The Battle of Red Mountain

It's also of note the Yagrum doesn't have nearly your confidence in this "valedictorian of tonal architecture":

"Lord Kagrenac, the foremost arcane philosopher and magecrafter of my era, devised tools to shape mythopoeic forces, intending to transcend the limits of Dwemer mortality. However, in reviewing his formulae, some logicians argued that side effects were unpredictable, and errors might be catastrophic. I think Kagrenac might have succeeded in granting our race eternal life, with unforeseen consequences -- such as wholesale displacement to an Outer Realm. Or he may have erred, and utterly destroyed our race."

I've seen nothing to support your second paragraph.

EDIT: Luagar2 beat me to it.

Let's not. The Dwemer shunned the Daedra.

On a probably-not-really-related note, about this "Time breaks when multiple gods are on Nirn" business: how do you explain the Dragon not being broken the entire time that the Tribunal (as gods) were around? I know it did break when they became gods, but I'm not referring to that part. Would it also be of any interest to note that no Dragon Break was reported following the Disappearance (afaik)?

Because they weren't Aedra. Also they were just immortal. Immortality by itself doesn't define godhood.

It was definitely more than immortality; read Vivec's dialogue again (the "to be a god" dialogue topic in particular I think). I might open up the CS and copypasta it if I stop being lazy. Also, Numidium isn't an Aedra, either, yet it stomps all over time whenever it starts stomping all over space.

Lol, seriously? I posted like five hours before you.

Besides, I thought your post was still worth being there.

I have a thing of not repeating what others have said that I wanted to say, and I've been playing Skyrim since that post.

Yes, however, as I previously stated, I don't exactly trust Battle at Red Mountain, as it seems to be pretty clearly Vivec trying to put his spin onto events. (And I would point out that in that text, Nerevar is claimed to have claimed that the Dwemer actually succeeded, so even within that one text, there are two conflicting accounts of what happened, which make it even less reliable as a source.)

Yagrum, meanwhile, seems to have believed that his race disappearing is somehow an unexpected event. He clearly isn't fully informed as to what actually happened, not being there, either, however, I get the impression whenever I read those lines that Yagrum didn't expect that the whole "merge all the dwarves into one being" would somehow not leave a whole bunch of dwarves around. Either much of the rest of what is expressed to be the goal of the Dwemer (which includes going back to the state of the first stroke of Anu and Padomay) is wrong, or Yagrum didn't understand what it would have actually entailed.


I suppose that means I'm going to have to track down that argument, and see what sources they cited, then, but that's something that will be too laborious for tonight.

Arbitrarily dismissing Vivic is hardly an argument. That Nerevar suspected they succeeded at something immediately after seeing them disappear is not contradictory, nor would be Vivec offering an alternative explanation; it simply demonstrates Vivec is giving a full account.

Perhaps Vivec is trying to put his own spin on events but it doesn't affect my argument. The only thing needed from that text is that Kagrenac was facing down his enemy before he struck the Heart. He was "threatened by Dagoth Ur and others." That Nerevar saw him use the Tools is proof enough. What does Vivec gain by lying about Nerevar and Ur being in the Heart chamber when Kagrenac used the Tools?

Yagrum may not be fully informed, but he's informed enough to substantiate the facts.

@Arklon

It was just a theory and i'm not to familiar with dwemer worshipping could someone direct me to a good place to learn about that.

If i take away the part that they worshiped Hermaeus wouldn't he still be able to turn them to ash.

Basically the Dwemer don't worship.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-ancient-tales-dwemer-part-11-azura-and-box os a decent read to get a feel for their ideas.

If it helps try thinking of it in the light of:

"It was unfashionable among the Dwemer to view their spirits as synthetic constructs three, four, or forty creational gradients below the divine."--Hasphat Antabolis

Great thread/discussion. Don't have enough time today to add anything in full depth but what always bothered me:

Yagrum; how on earth did he not disappear like the rest? Was there something different about him? There might have been other individuals left behind somewhere.

Dwemer revenants/spirits encountered throughout Morrowind. Obviously this could just be game mechanics or simply echoes left behind but still. If they ascended, no matter what that would precisely entail, you would expect their spirits to be the most important!


To me the Dwemer were the "atheists" of the TES universe. I put it in brackets because to them the existence of gods is very real and even perceivable but they choose to ignore worship of them and looked at creation more as a mechanical process that could be understood and even altered. IMHO of course.

Yagrum explained it. He was in an "Outer Realm", which probably means a plane of Oblivion or Aetherius.

The Outer Realms are generally seen as areas outside Oblivion and Aetherius, like pocket realms. Proweler has an article over in the http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-nature-places-not-here on the topic.

Ok thanks that explains that. Been too long and I only recently started replaying Morrowind. Couldnt find it going through the wiki and such but I'm in a hurry so..eh.

What about a guy in a catsuit, a bandanna, chaff grenades, and stinger missiles?

I thought that was Baladas's line.

Yes, Baladas, my mistake.