This isn't a challenge by the way. I have just been debating for a long time whether I should join the Imperials or stormcloaks and right now I'm leaning toward stormcloaks due to a few reasons that I was hoping someone could argue. (I might be straight out wrong about some things)

1. The Treaty has lasted around 30 years now. While it was to cease the conflict TEMPORARILY, 30 years is a long time for human races. If worshiping Talos is their way of life the Empire has taken a majority of it.

2. Poor politics in the Empire. The Empire failed to realize how accepting such a treaty would be even more harmful for them. Because of the treaty that the Thalmor had planned all along, Imperials lost Hammerfell and a civil war was started in Skyrim.

3. In the end the other provinces are second in interest to Cyrodil. For example, the Empire completely abandoned Morrowind in a time of struggle, leaving them to their doom. Morrowind depended on the structure of the Empire to govern them but the Empire had left when troubles came. Same thing with how the Empire was willing to give away a part of Hammerfell in the treaty. My point is, I believe the nations should have their own governing bodies and be in control of themselves so the provinces will fight for their own interests. The Empire seems to only use these provinces to their advantages and lack the heart that a governing body like the Stormcloaks can provide.

4. The Empire is holding Skyrim back. Whether or not Ulfric was right in creating more violence, the Empire is already crumbling. They are a fraction of what they once were. I don't believe they have the power to be able to fight for Skyrim and the other provinces. I believe the Stormcloaks have the heart and passion Skyrim needs to survive the Thalmor. In my opinion an alliance between nations can serve more useful than an Empire trying to work in different provinces at once. I believe an alliance with the Nords and the Redguards (and maybe even High Rock as I read Ulfric had tried to create an alliance with them) can prove a greater threat to the Thalmor than the Empire would at this point.

"1. The Treaty has lasted around 30 years now. While it was to cease the conflict TEMPORARILY, 30 years is a long time for human races. If worshiping Talos is their way of life the Empire has taken a majority of it."

Guess what happened :A civil war in Skyrim....while the empire is ammasing troops at the border to the AD.And no it is not the 70 Years war had long periods of peace ,the 100 years one did.The first punic war had 23 years of peace before the second...,etc.

"As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off."

They sustained massive damage and it takes time to get a country or Empire running again.Especially if you have childish infighting by a bunch of religious fanatics.

2.The Thalmor only started to arrrest Nord in Skyrim after the Markath incident before that the Empire allowed them to still worship him in their houses.

"The so-called http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ulfric_Stormcloak#The_Markarth_Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Skyrim,"

"the Empire completely abandoned Morrowind in a time of struggle"

Hilarious....the Dunmer WANTED to be left alone by the Empire all the time before.Did you even play Morrowind?They even has messianic archetype to drive the outlander out....

"and lack the heart that a governing body like the Stormcloaks can provide."

You mean the Nords who have incompenent Jarls and plunge their country in a civil war?Who leader is imlied to only do it because of his own inflated ego?

4."The Empire is holding Skyrim back."

Skyrim without the Empire has no allies,no real infrastruture and no chance to win a war agasit the Thalmor in a war.And if you read read carefully the Bretons are 1.Not a single united kingdom 2. They ignored him.

@ Synthoras

3. Still, Morrowind was still a part of the empire. Its similar to how many of the nords want the Empire out of skyrim now. And also they basically abandoned Hammerfell completely to satisfy the treaty despite all the redguards did for the Empire.

2. The Thalmor are simply doing anything that will create an uprising and the Emperor should have been aware of that.

4. But how do you know Skyrim can't form any alliances? Hammerfell and Skyrim are in very similar situations. And High Rock would now be cut off from Cyrodil.

As far as choosing Imperial or Stormcloak is concerned, I tend to believe that the bottom line is whether or not you want to live under Thalmor rule. Which side is ACTUALLY planning on going to war against the Aldmeri Dominion?

Both sides have valid points, but IMO the stormcloaks fail to see the bigger picture.

Agree with dethfield up here.

Although I have sympathy for the Stormcloak cause, I find it in the end to be counter-effective for what they consider their chief-goal: resisting the Thalmor. Besides Ulfric Stormcloak is one of the most dubious characters ever created by TES. Dialogues with him show him to be a very noble and honoust leader, yet many sources, especially the Thalmor dossiers, make me question his sincerity. As dethfield pointed out, the Empire clearly doesn't like the White-Gold concordat, it's a temporary compromise nothing more. I still need to run into the first non-thalmor character that actually defends the ban on Talos worship. (plus the quest that Elisif gave on returning the amulet to the secret shrine also points at the fact that secret worship of Talos is still tolerated by the Empire.

Looking at the big picture again I believe the Stormcloaks to be the one who screwed up, not the Empire. Skyrim and the Empire will need each other when the new war starts and while it wouldn't matter if Skyrim was actually part of the Empire or not. the Stormcloaks, and Ulfric in particular, seriously damaged the relations. There's a reason that the Thalmor want the Civil War to continue, independent of the winner.

You want to talk about "lack of heart" look at the silver-bloods. A family of slavers and thugs, their mines filled with innocents forced to work until they die, Thongvar even straight up says that he wants Ulfric to help end the Forsworn rebellion by putting the forsworn into chains and be forced to slave labor until they die and going to tell you this, they don't care if a reachmen is forsworn or not.

Oh how about Ulfric banning the Argonians from entering Windhelm, or the Dunmer being ignored completely and harassed by the stormcloak supporting Nords? You can try to say it's the Dunmer's fault the Argonians are banned but that's a failed argument when there is little racism from the Dunmer and a whole lot of it from the stormcloaks supporting Nords. Not to mention we already know that Ulfric doesn't attack bandits that attack non-Nord caravans and travelers.

Under the Empire more people are happy and we don't end up with a slaver family ruling Markarth

The stormcloaks aren't as good as you say, they're pretty bad.

This is also a true state of why probably my personal feelings will always belong more to the Empire, even though its not perfect its based for a large part on the ideas of diversity that lie close to the (quoting the Skyrim loading screen:) cosmopolitan heart of the Imperials. The Stormcloaks remind me way too often of stupid and irrational nationalism, suffering from the same superiority-complex as the Thalmor do.

Many pro-Imperial nords (even jarls) have some bones to pick with the Empire, but they don't have their rose-tinted nostalgia goggles on, and recognize Ulfric and the Stormcloaks for what they are: a return to the "bad old days" (as Uncle Alvor put it).

And the 'Cloaks can't even get it right. Where's the honor of the Clever Craft? Oh, that's right, magic is poncy milk-drinking elf tripe.

Play it however feels good. There are good arguments for either side (and a lot of bad ones. )

One thing I'll dispute. The Empire never abandoned Morrowind. The Empire's presence in Morrowind was tolerated and allowed by the Tribunal, but Morrowind never really "joined" the Empire. It was more of a treaty and business arrangement.

Morrowind was never governed by the Empire; Imperial Law could not be enforced in Morrowind, where slavery was still legal. Morrowind was ruled by god-kings who were (at least in the past) far more powerful than the Cyrodiilic emperor.

Morrowind was largely destroyed by the eruption of Red Mountain. After the Oblivion Crisis, there was no possibility of the Empire coming to Morrowind's rescue.

...and all this time I thought Morrowind was probably destroyed by Uncle Crassius...

Here is teh thing with the stormcloaks:

1. Skyrim, by itself, would be ruled by the Thalmor VERY quickly. if an entire empire cannot stop them, how can a single country, that is divided at this point still, have ANY chance against the Thalmor.

2. the "old way" is a VERY bad excuse. If you went up to someone and challeneged them to a duel to the death, you could NEVER get away with "it is old tradition, that is what we should follow". You would be laughed right into jail.

3. for all his talk about teh "old ways", they only seem to care about Talos, and nothing else. Despite Talos being a relatively new god. they seem completely ignorant about ANY of the other gods, besides like shor, and one or two others. they act as if Talos was always the main religion for the entire race for the old ways, when in reality, he just had a cult following by the Nords.

Those philistines will respect the Three Legged Guar OR THEY WILL DIE!

this bothers me more than anything.. they talk about "the old ways" and yet refuse to acknowledge the majority of the actual Nord Pantheon.. heck, Talos isn't even in the Nordic Pantheon, Talos is a god of the Imperial Cult, Ysmir is the Nordic equivalent

1. Pretend for a moment you and the vast majority of your countrymen are very devout Christians. The government outlaws worship of Christ. Do you honestly think that after 30 years most of them would no longer be Christian? Same idea here. Talos worship is banned but people don't give up their beliefs easily, even if they have to hide them.

All the 'old way' talk isn't genuine, it's just a pretext Ulfric uses to rally the gullible to his banner.

I don't disagree that after the Oblivion crisis, the Empire was much less powerful than before and no longer had the wherewithal to do much about the situation in Morrowind, but I am not sure I agree that Vivec was running the government in Morrowind or that the Tribunal "tolerated and allowed" the Empire's presence in Morrowind. It would be more accurate to say the Empire "tolerated and allowed" Morrowind to have some form of self rule, under the Empire's ultimate control, and the Empire "tolerated and allowed" many of Morrowind's customs.

Vivec wisely negotiated with Tiber Septim to retain much of Morrowind's independence, but I don't think there was much question Morrowind would have been conquered if Vivec had not been able to negotiate a conditional surrender. Morrowind was allowed to keep its customs, and its local leaders, but there is no question that it was under Imperial control. By the time the Morrowind game took place, Vivec had retreated to his temple and was not really conducting any sort of governance. Half the time he was in another plane and the other half the time he was struggling to keep the ghostfence intact. And the political power was being wielded by the Duke, who answered to the Empire, and of course all the Imperial forts reminded the populace who was really in control.