Just like Google didn't think they'd get caught "collecting" wi-fi data whilst engaged on Street View photography.

But you're looking at it backwards. You say Google is "logging data", yet they logs your searches and what pages you travel to from said searches, as well as selling that information to whomever they please, all without giving you the slightest idea that they are doing that. However, you accuse Valve and Steam of stealing you data, yet all they do is look and see what Steam-requiring games you have installed, plus offer a voluntary hardware survey. And none of that information is hidden from you when you sign up for Steam.

Now honestly, which one sounds worse?

Well, let's put the DRM issue out of the window here.

I have a question for you:

If you buy your groceries at the local supermarket, you pay for it and leave.

You don't have to contact the main office of the corporation you have bought it from, nor a middle man, to fill in a number of the receipt or have to get something else from the corporation allowing you to actually use the groceries you've bought.

You buy it, and can use it instantly.

This is not the case now, and that is my point.

I, as a legitimate buyer, have to go trough extra actions to be able to use the product I've paid for. Mostly in the name of counter piracy.
The people who buy their games legitimate are harassed with doing all these extra things, while pirates just have to wait a few extra days and are able to install and play.

So my question considering this topic remains the same: Why bother the people that actually pay for your product with extra things they have to go trough, whilst the once who don't remain virtually unaffected?

Games are a luxury; food is not.

Stop treating games the same as equal to something that is required to live.

This. the huge sense of entitlement i see in gamers nowadays is astoundingly atrocious.

Saying forcing you to use steam is a form of "harassment" is pathetic.

No business ever bends completely to the consumers will, yet every gamer expects all developers and publishers to cater their specific needs and wants. and when one gamer doesn't get it the way they want it they whine, throw a hissy-fit like a child and start calling unfair practices. No business is ever going to do what you specifically want. They are always going to go for what's the best business model. this is just the natural evolution of gaming as an industry. get over it.

It does absolutely nothing to the content of the game and doesn't affect the experience of the game in any way

It just puts me in a position I didn't want to be in . I've been looking forward to NV since I first heard rumors of it.

What position? One extra program on your PC in exchange for many sales and countless deals on PC games along with a company who supports their games and software like no other? Seems OK to me.

They collected samples of payload data from unencrypted wifi networks. The data is used for things like Skyhook and other wifi location services. My cell phone does the same thing to help nail down my location when I don't have a GPS signal. When you look into what they were collecting it's actually silly that some people are jumping to the conclusion that it was a privacy violation. :shrug:

That said, if you're concerned about your wifi privacy the very first thing you need to do is make sure your router is using some kind of WPA encryption. This isn't news.


Now that's actually a reason I consider legit. "I just don't want it" is a better reason to be unhappy about the decision than most of the others I've seen. I'd still argue that most people that are against Steam use other forms of DRM regularly that are bigger violations to their rights as a consumer than Steam is. The difference is those don't tell you what they're doing.


Again, this isn't a discussion about the merits of using or not using DRM. This is a discussion about Steam.


Well, I definitely think it's best to steer clear of the subject of piracy as it's not entirely welcomed by our hosts.

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue that everyone should love Steam. I would prefer that my games have no DRM at all. For me the biggest reason to dislike the decision is that I can't re-sell the license if I want to. Other than that and a general dislike for DRM I prefer Steam over a large portion of the alternatives.

Steam would be okay, but there's one issue... offline mode in Steam has a tendency to screw up. It can only be fixed having a internet connection so the system can validate the cache again. Usually the ClientRegistry.blob has to be deleted to fix the problem if there's more errors.

I will concede that point. When I had dialup, Steam wasn't even worth messing with. Offline mode just up and quit working one day and I could never get it to work again. Once I got better internet however, everything works just great.

well just a little programm ... it's function is to stop piracy ... right?
and ... ?hm the pirates had civilazation5 (with steam) 3 days before a legal customer could use it...
be honest and tell me what sense does steam make any longer if it doesn't fullfills it's function

they use steam to eliminate the used-game-market

the best solution in my eyes is:
-dvd check like in FO3
-optional steam

Because like I said three pages before, Steam's primary purpose isn't DRM, it's digital distribution. The DRM is only there as a product of its upbringing, so to speak.

Even though you cant buy used computer games (at least from places like gamestop)? this would be a valid argument if the game wasn't also being released on 360 and PS3.

If Steam is primarily digital distribution it wouldn't be being forced on us that are actually walking into a shop and purchasing a copy. Steam in this instance is being used solely as DRM. There should be at least one alternative option for those of us that want to buy a physical copy of the game (I for one have pre-ordered the collectors edition as I wanted the graphic novel, playing cards etc).

That's not true at all. It's replacing GFWL for achievements and such, and it's being used to keep the game up to date with patches.

Seeing as I never used GfWL (another piece of software I don't want or need) in FO3 I'll take your word for it. I couldn't care less about achievements and I always, and I mean always, manually patch.

So, are you seriously thinking that steam is taking your personal information? Or are you just objecting to online activation in principle? Because... I highly doubt that Valve cares about your personal information. I mean, Valve is a respected and legitimate company, not some tiny front company for an identity theft ring or anything.



No. It's function (DRM function anyway) is to reduce piracy via making it more inconvenient to pirate. Which steam does. No DRM can truly stop piracy.



This is true. However, I'm fairly certain you can back up ClientRegistry.blob and restore from that backup if there's a problem. Even if not, it's no different than playing FO3 with Broken Steel, having your game get corrupted, reinstalling, and then having to go back online to get the 1.5 patch to play in effect.

Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Same for me on both counts. Just pointing out that from Bethesda's perspective DRM is not the only reason for using Steam.

got my point of view just right on this...

I didn't say I didn't see it, I said I didn't use it. I was aware of it and it was of no benefit to me so I ignored it. Doesn't look like I'll be able to do the same with Steam[ing pile of ... ]



Sure I get that for Bethesda it is a great package, covers DRM, updates, achievements all in one go. But that doesn't always make it the best solution for their customers.

What would be a better solution, barring "using no DRM at all?"

You will be able to completely ignore Steam. When you insert the game disc, if Steam isn't installed, the installer will prompt you to do that before the game is installed. Once the game is installed, you can launch the game and it will automatically start Steam then launch the game itself.

I does you no good to talk crap about Steam when you have no apparent experience with it.

How can you say I can ignore it when every time I start up the game it starts a 3rd parties software I don't want?



Sorry the bit in brackets was tongue in cheek, I should know better than to try to convey sarcasm across a typed medium. I have tried Steam in the past and it was a buggy laggy piece of poop at the time. I'm sure it has improved, but that is not the point. I have built and/or upgraded every PC I have owned for the last decade or so. I ensure that I only install software that is of use and relevance to me. Now to play a game I really want to play (I own all the Fallouts, except the one that was console only) I am forced into installing something I don't want, trust or need.

Well, it's up to you to want Steam, but many, many people trust it and quite a few games need it, so in the end, you're only hurting yourself. And over issues and concerns that frankly have no proof to back them up, no less.