As it's presented to us ingame (thanks to MK-I-mean-Paarthurnax), powerful Thu'uming requires in-depth study and mastery of the concepts you're expressing. Such concentrated study creates dogmatism to certain ideals. Magic is more flexible and more abstract. You, a mortal, can understand and express mortality and finite, but you can't express reaching into the void and bringing a creature to you because some of that process is inherently unknowable to you. Especially since all syllables are almost always pushed out away from the body.

I hope you can follow these ramblings.

We used to tie a thu'um in a bag every time we put out to sea in case of being becalmed.

Think of it like martial arts being used as a form of moving meditation. What's supposed to be important is that the focus and balance that you are forced to learn to do them effectively helps you step towards enlightenment. As an added bonus, you can cook your steak by shouting at it.

Probably. If the Thu'um involves "focusing a person's essence," as legend holds it does, then why wouldn't a person be able to do so at need? The Dragonborn is, by necessity of Alduin coming back, a warrior who uses the words he learns for combat shouts. Clear Skies is probably just one of many non-combat shouts that the Dragonborn just never had the time or patience to learn. In peaceful times, Alduin's Raise Dragon shout would probably also not be considered as a weapon. Hell, even "combat shouts" is a misnomer. Unrelenting Force, though most commonly used in Skyrim to push trolls off mountains and bandits off towers, likely has other uses based on Paarthurnax's meditations on "Fus."

I think it's almost the opposite: a shout is not an abstract concept. Thu'um is a direct projection of one's vital essence. It comes, as it were, straight from the heart. That is incompatible with dogmatism. If you understand magic, at least of the sort that the College of Winterhold studies, as a matter of abstraction, then that's where dogmatism could be found, not in the use of Thu'um.

It's not just that Arngeir didn't know what Dragonrend actually meant; it's that he was afraid of learning it, because he believed it would change the learner. But as Paarthurnax explained, only a mortal could speak Dragonrend, because it's an expression of what it is to be a mortal. It's exactly what a mortal hero has to say to a dragon. So Arngeir was wrong: if the fundamental idea of Dragonrend wasn't already part of the vital essence of the speaker, the speaker wouldn't be able to learn how to say it anyway.

Also, come to think of it, the nature of the Dragonborn is to be both mortal and dragon, and as Paarthurnax explains it, the essence of dragons is the will to power. Paarthurnax chose the path of deliberately suppressing his will to power, and that is the starting point for the Greybeards, and would necessarily inhibit their understanding of Thu'um. Ironically, this would mean that the Greybeards are less like dragons than most people are.

Learning a shout is the process of understanding the shout. The thing with Dragonrend is that it relies on concepts that dragons are unable to comprehend (finite, mortality, etc). But in addition to understanding it, you actually have to mean what you shout. So when you're shouting Dragonrend at a dragon, it's fueled by the hatred and contempt mortals have for dragons to bring them down from their high perch and make them experience the pain and terror of mortality. The Greybeards could learn Dragonrend (as they understand mortality and stuff), but using it would change their peaceful/pacifist nature (as they have to take its concepts of hate and contempt for dragons to heart and mean them).

Paarthurnax and the other dragons, though, can't learn it because they don't understand the meanings of the words, so they obviously can't take its concepts to heart.

Suppressing the will to power may close off certain avenues of Thu'um use, but it could equally open up other ones. Kyne's Peace, for example, probably wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the will of peaceful coexistence with nature. Since using Thu'um requires understanding and meaning the concepts embodied in the words, someone who's power-hungry would be less able to use shouts of peace, just like pacifists would be less able to use shouts of war.

My dog has lately developed the habit of barking loudly when she hears anyone on the stairs. I rather wish I could use Kyne's Peace to make her stop barking. While "peaceful", that's an expression of my will to power over my dog. Given an existing state of domination and subordination, the dominant party favors "peace", as it is the continuation of their domination.

Clear Skies is also an expression of power over nature, "peaceful" though it may be. If fog had a will, it would not see Clear Skies as peaceful.

Is it really an expression of peace to assert domination? Just because you want to use "peace" to shut up your dog, doesn't mean it would be an honest expression of peace. You would just be saying one thing (peace, trust) and meaning another (domination, control).

Hence the scare quotes around "peaceful".

And how do you use Kyne's Peace in the game? Not to express your sense of communion with an ecosystem; you use it to stop sabrecats from attacking you, which they are most likely doing in order to eat you, or perhaps just to eat your horse. Kyne's Peace is entirely about subordinating their desires to your own.

When Arngeir first brought up the belief of the Greybeards that the proper use of Thu'um was the worship of the Divines, I immediately started to distrust him. Passive worship of the gods in the Elder Scrolls seems to reduce one to irrelevance. And while there are stupid ways to fetishize "will to power", I tend to distrust outright denial of it. Paarthurnax, at lease, seems to understand that "will to power" is inseparably part of him, and something he must acknowledge in order to restrain.

I'd tend to think a healthier attitude is that while one wishes to dominate, it's usually wiser not to give full rein to that wish. Counterposed to "will to power" is love.

Addendum: the apparent literal meaning of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Kyne%27s_Peace bear out Huleed's idea, but I think the inscriptions in which "peace" and "trust" occur may suggest that the speaker does not intend for "peace" and "trust" to be mutual; I think it's a bit ambiguous.

Limitations of gameplay, I'd say. To be useful, it has to have a functional use. That players use it for the purpose of pacifying aggressive animals, as opposed to "communing with the ecosystem", is not really much different than using Dragonrend to make dragons easier to kill, as opposed to making them understand the terror that comes with mortality.

FWIW, my character does use Kyne's Peace to "bring peace". In addition to wolves, bears, and sabrecats to stop them from attacking, he'll also use it for foxes and goats and stuff who pose no threat. He's used it to stop animals from attacking each other, too.

I'm not sure the Greybeards deny the will to dominate exists. But they're an order of monks who've existed for hundreds, if not thousands, of years with one of their core tenants being that of peace. For them, the proper use of Thu'um is to worship the gods because they don't follow a path to use it for war.

Maybe you could say the Greybeards take the pacifism to an extreme degree, but they're supposed to be the balance against the Blades' want for genocide, and so may come across as extreme in their views just as the Blades do on the other end.

I'm not sure the text in which the words are found bear on the meaning of the word. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Disarm, for instance, uses "Zun" (weapon) in reference to the greatest weapon being the mind of a steel-souled warrior, yet the shout is about getting rid of the physical weapon in the enemy's hand. In addition, the text for "Haal" (hand) has it as a person's name.

That's your roleplaying choice. Though I would note that preventing wolves from killing goats is kind to the goats but cruel to the wolves; i.e., an arbitrary expression of power over them.
It's still rather a mystery what the Nords were doing at Red Mountain; it's not at all clear that their interpretation of Jurgen Windcaller is historically accurate. As for the denial: my sense is that there's something fundamentally sick about the Greybeards. They have an honored teacher whom they seldom dare even talk to, whose first words to you on meeting you are how much he loves conversation. Arngeir expresses fear of Dragonrend, and advises the Dragonborn to not seek it out, but Arngeir clearly doesn't understand what Dragonrend actually means.
I'm not sure that we can say that they take pacifism to an extreme -- as has been pointed out elsewhere, they seem to be willing to defend themselves at least.

I don't think we can describe the Blades as an extreme, either. If you ask Paarthurnax about the Blades' demand to kill him, he says that they're right to distrust him, as dragons cannot be trusted, and they have no way to know that he is an exception.

It's worth pointing out, though, that the Blades and the Greybeards are clearly counterposed to each other, and each makes accurate criticisms of the other. In particular, Arngeir cautions the Dragonborn that the Blades have never truly served the Dragonborn, but have some other hidden agenda. The willingness of the Blades to cut off all contact with the Dragonborn for refusing to kill Paarthurnax demonstrates that the Blades are liars, that it isn't true that their highest goal is serving the Dragonborn.

Neither the Greybeards nor the Blades are reliable advisers.
Actually, the context for Zun would tend to confirm the idea, as the effect of the shout is to demonstrate that the user of Thu'um can overcome mundane weapons. The rest seems pretty random though.

Cool stuff. Which also supports my idea that the "combat shouts" seen in game are far from the only use of the Thu'um, just the uses that circumstance forced the Dragonborn to use.

And as for understanding the words, that does make it so that different people may get somewhat different effects per Shout. For example, if a warrior learned a Word for "cut," it would have a different effect than it would for a mason or carpenter using the same Shout. That is, if we understand the concept correctly.

Oh, well, now we're getting into the realm of "Language is a dynamic creation, with word meanings changing with the culture."

The Dragonborn is learning (most of) their words in the context of the Dragons. But with men and with the Greybeards, they've had a couple thousand years to evolve their concepts of the words in their cultural context. The most prominent example: The Dragons and their Nord followers knew of Fus Ro Dah as an extension of their dominance over the world. The Dragons used it to get rid of barriers/hiding places, but primarily as an instrument of fear. Their followers used Fus Ro Dah as an admonition that you, slave, are in an area beyond your station. But the Greybeards use it almost to legitimize their presence in this world. They're almost saying "I exist and this is proof that I exist."

Until we got a Thu'um bag that contained Ysmir and a mutinous crew member opened it and blew us completely off course.

And right as we saw our homes on the horizon too. Instead we got turned into mudcrabs by a witch.

Thing is that Dragonrend can only be used for destruction. There is no peaceful application of it at all imaginable. I am sure that the Greybeards would also dislike Marked for Death and Dismay, but you never get the chance to ask about that.

I did enjoy Alduin's response to Dismay: "You think I'll run away Dovahkiin?", seeing opponents react to shouts in unique ways gives insight into them just as much as asking Greybeards for sparknotes.


Even ingame you have examples of non-combat oriented Thu'um. Clear Skies, Calling Odahviing. The Greybeards shout at you in unison to declare you Dovahkiin and summon you to Hrothgar using Thu'um for non-combat means as well. Even Alduin uses his his "Slen (flesh) Tiid (Time) Vo (Undo)" Thu'um to revive his brethren - the Dovahkiin learns "Slen" and "Tiid" for the Ice Form and Slow Time shouts respectively, however, can only apply them within combat parameters as that is all you are taught to use them for (and also game limitations).

The practical effect of Dragonrend, in game, is to force a dragon to land, presumably because they're so astonished by the concept of mortality that they experience the http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainousBSOD. But that's not directly destructive -- not like, say, Unstoppable Force, which is the first shout the Greybeards teach you directly. It's easy enough to imagine that if a dragon heard Dragonrend when it wasn't busy trying to kill you, it might instead spend a few years thinking about the meaning of mortality.

You are forcing a creature to completely re-think what it is, the effect in game seems incredibly minimal. I kinda expected dragons to just blow upon hearing it. But the effect is not in anyway nice or good, the primary application is in war, destruction, and getting dominance over others.

But it's okay because the witch was totally hawt. And Peryite flew in and gave me an antidote, so I didn't get transformed but still totally scored with her.

The bit after we ate Magnar's Horkers svcked, though, gotta admit.

An interesting one to me was when I fought Odahviing. After calling him I didn't use any shouts on him, and after he was captured he lamented that he didn't get to feel my thu'um in battle (I actually felt a little sorry for him and considered reloading just so I could use a shout on him).

It surprises me just how reactive and aware NPCs can be of what you've done (or didn't do). Something a lot of players will sadly overlook.

Well it happens at certain parts, like that and with Falk Firebeard.

The Thu'um in Skyrim is a good intersection of gameplay and story. You only learn the combat applications of Thu'ums because that is all they could program in time, and also because that's what a Dragonborn would learn naturally since Dragonborn learn shouts through violence. I mean, Throw Voice was used in the lore to communicate over long distances. The Dragonborn uses it to screw with bandits so he can shiv them.