I was reading the 36 Lessons of Vivec, and it talks about the fight between Vivec and Ysmir in Sermon 9. It says that Vivec somehow captured Ysmir's shouts and used them against him (this is my interpretation). Would it be possible to use a recorded Shout in a fight?
As a side note, it think this is one of the times in lore that Fu Ro Dah is used (throwing villages into the sea).

The Graybeards can inscribe words. Also Lessons was written around a decade ago, and it's highly doubtful that the concrete idea of Thu'um that exists in Skyrim was anything like the pre-Morrowind idea. Other than shouting magic, I don't think the devs had any similar notions to its current state. Also the Thu'um in the written lore is much more powerful, not bound by gameplay elements such as cool downs or even nomenclature of division. In the lore someone with a powerful enough Thu'um could kill with regular talking.

Lessons is also conveniently vague as to how Nerevar fought Ysmir. If the text is to be taken literally, Nerevar caught Ysmir's voice in his hands and then put an ebony helm on him so that his voice would ricochet and drive him insane. I always found that description strange given Ysmir's power as I'd expect him to just blast a hole through the helm. It is described as a reverberating frame or something, so it could have unique acoustic qualities. Simply put, it's myth logic. If Ysmir could pick up villages with his voice why didn't he pick up huge quantities of Resdayn and smash the Chimer to jelly? It fits the myth, and in this myth Nerevar can catch voices in his hands, and ebony shaped into the right form can reflect any sound regardless of magnitude or magic.

It's myth and poetry. Neither of which should be taken at face value even in this world where myth actively shapes reality. Literal interpretation is the antithesis of poetry.

All of Resdaynia's history is a blur of the literal and the metaphorical. Did Nerevar just punch Ysmir in the throat, while Vivec dumps a bucket on his head? Meh. But if the sermon is literally true, Vivec is hardly a poet. I still say Vivec used his moment of Godhood to reshape the past into a more beautiful shape, writing it as living poetry, but I'm aware that Chaplain has misgivings regarding such a liberal application of 'A Magic Hermaphrodite Did It'.

It's quite true what you say. In the DVD that followed with Skyrim's Collector's Edition, Todd Howard explicitly states that Thu'um wasn't really conceived as the dragon language of the Nords that it is in Skyrim. It's was just a really powerful shout, that the nords had cultivated and used as a battle tactic. However, when they started to develop the lore for Skyrim, they found it rather convenient to use the Thu'um and put it to good use. This is actually quite good proff that bethesda develop lore as they go along.

I don't think a sound recorder in the style of today's recorders would work.

Shouters channel their lifeforce into the shout. Machines don't do that.

Unless they're made to do that.

Dwemer-thu'um-shouting-robot conspiracies, begin!

Isn't there a reference somewhere about a thu'um duel, where one side was swallowing his opponent's shouts? Maybe one an swallow and spit back shouts.

Or capture some sort of an echo and redirect it.

I believe that was Jurgen Windcaller against his Brother Tongues. Apparently they had a major beef that he refused to be privy to a second invasion of Morrowind.

Then they all began following his non-violant use of Thu'um philosophy.

I hate that Tongues are now Jedi. Talk about boring, therefore wrong. With Ulfric as Anakin. BLEH!

Lord Nerevar and Vivec defeated Ysmir at Red Mountain this way.

They were "Jedi" ever since they first appeared in lore. The Tongues first appeared in the Pocket Guide, and Jurgen did too.

I like it, honestly. But they should have focused on the early First Era, where all this happened. So we could have the best of both worlds. Wulfharth, a berserking Tongue, his berserking Tongue [censored]es, being decimated by the Chimer, followed by the peaceful philosophy of Jurgen, ect. Alduin was there! But no, we got this... Dragon War thing. I cringe every time it's mentioned. It's like Bethesda was completely unaware of how cheesy it is, judging by how seriously they portray it.

It seems so... disconnected. I'm tempted to treat the Civil War as the Main Quest with Alduin being comparable to a side boss.

Vivec. There's your problem.

Not quite. The Pocket Guide ti the Empire 1st Edition (from 1998) says that the Thu'um was a very powerful magic. They might have added the whole "dragon language" part, but remember- the only other game with any dragons in it was Daggerfall. They may have been making it up as they were going, but they were not contradicting themselves, but just filling a hole in the lore with something that made sense.

I was a bit thrown off by Arngeir's statement that the Thu'um should only be used to worship the gods. How do you worship gods with fire/frost breath, disarming, and time slowing? In my mind there is still a disconnect between lore Thu'um and game Thu'um, the latter requiring exact words and number of words where the former is just limitless. I still think you can deliver hour-long Thu'um orations if you're good enough.

Argeir does though give a good reason as to why the Nords lost at Red Mountain. I never thought it realistic that guys who could the earth apart could lose to a bunch of guys with basic weapons and magic. Sure Nerevar was a great general, and the Ashlanders were great guerrilla fighters, but the Tongues could yell down mountains and scream storms. And Ysmir was a freaking OP ghost fighting in the vicinity of his heart, with his blood literally coursing under his feet.

What's the good reason he gives then? I haven't heard one, except for gods being upset by their actions... Which to be honest doesn't make that much sense to me.

Their loss can just as easily, or perhaps even easier be explained by magic.

I don't buy that magic could trump Thu'um. Magic requires a resource reserve. Thu'um is just shouting power. A squad of Tongues could rip land apart and summon natural disasters. What is the point of even having something like Thu'um if it can be brushed away with magic?

Yes. Filling a hole in the lore with something that made sense. That was the point I was trying to make. Maybe I should have worded myself a little better.

It's not the thu'um itself that's worshiping the gods, it's the reason for using it that does. Using thu'um for wanton war doesn't worship anybody (except maybe Talos), but using thu'um to improve your inner self and become spiritually stronger is more respectful to the gods' wishes, thus is honoring/worshiping them.

Arngeir didn't, in general, seem like a very reliable guide. He generally seemed to rely on a sort of dogmatism. Supposedly the great teacher was the dragon up the hill, whom none of the Greybeards had spoken to in centuries. In particular, Arngeir's seemed to understand Dragonrend as an expression of pure malice which would degrade the mind of the speaker, at odds with Paartharnax's account, it's an expression of the concept of mortality. That makes perfect sense as a projection from the speaker's spiritual essence.

I came away with the impression that the Blades' criticism of the Greybeards, and the Greybeards' criticisms of the Blades, were both accurate: the Blades have a hidden agenda, and the Greybeards are disconnected from the world.

It's always a competition when I visit the lore forum and trying to not rage constantly.

Magic can do some crazy things too. During the Oblivion Crisis the Dunmer http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ald%27ruhn to fight against the Daedra, for example. I'd say magic on that level can give the Thu'um a run for its money.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the Ansei can cut Shouts in half, given what http://www.imperial-library.info/content/lord-vivecs-sword-meeting-cyrus-restless implies about the highest level sword-saint techniques. Granted, the Shehai doesn't sound like magic any more than the Thu'um does, but at this level of mythic throwing-down, well ... *shrugs*

Loranna

It's an alternative, a very powerful but difficult to learn alternative. Magic, at least, in game can clearly cancel out the Thu'um. I can see the Thu'um perhaps being more powerful then normal magic at first, but an experienced well trained mage can surely do most of what the Thu'um can do as well, and probably stop it.

Considering that the Nords lost that battle I say that's the most likely situation.

Vehk keeps thu'um in mason jars on a shelf.

Why not? There is nothing anywhere that suggests that Thu'um is more powerful than regular magic, perticularly when magic is described as nearly limitless. There are individual accounts of specific perticularly powerful thu'um masters doing some incredible things, but the same is true of standard magic as well where powerful mages reshape the very world around them.

As for how vivec might have used Ysmir's shouts against him, considering Magic wards and magic absorption works against the Thu'um, could Vivec have simply been using a reflect spell?