There are plenty of real world examples, that go against this. Not the part of what's considered an act of war, but what you're saying isn't considered so. There are groups in the US, considered by the FBI, etc. as domestic terrorists (ie ELF, ALF, etc.) who have been attacked through many different ways of war, not just troops like you see on TV.

Past groups/events, are like the fall of the Weather Underground and Black Panthers. Both were considered a threat and terrorists (the Black Panthers to an extent), and were taken down through covert government ways, that didn't involve troops being used.



Maybe, it depends, but like I said above, domestic terrorism is something the US Government and others, deal with. In the Fallout Universe, there was probably a lot of domestic terrorism happening in one way or another.

So you are saying America would go to war with itself to stop domestic terrorsts? I am talking a real shooting war.

The pipeline that was bombed was the Alaskan Pipeline, it was American but it was built during WW2 through Canada. Canada allowed it because we were allies.

The point is a couple Canadian's fighting against American aggression bombed a section of pipeline, ( alot of that pipeline is nowhere close to people) was the reason America invaded Canada.. Then that does not justify the killing of Canadians and the bombing of their cities. This all goes back to The Enclave's comment. If I am not mistaken was trying to say America did nothing wrong, saying they weren't like Nazi's.

Randall Clark said the what was going on in Canada was criminal. I agree. America never declared war on Canada and yet they were taking it over, invading it. Germany didn't declare war on those they invaded. America's excuses was to protect a pipeline and the feeling that Canada was pretty much apart of America anyways. Germany invaded/annexed countries with the same BS.

If you really want to get technical.. America Annexed Canada in 2077. This means all Canadians are now American's. So those PA troops executing people in the street are not executing Canadian rebels. They are executing American citizens.

So to wrap things up:

1: Invation of a sovereign nation without a declaration of war.
2: Killing hundreds if not thousands, bombing cities all because one pipeline was attacked
3: Executing American citizens.

Randall Clark was right. It must have been very sickening to see such criminal brutal acts.

Sure, why not? Britain went to war with British citizens/colonials who didn't any longer consider themselves such, and the war ended up being the American Revolution. The American Revolutionaries back then, would be considered domestic terrorists in todays standards, so why wouldn't the America in the Fallout Universe think to possibly have a shooting war? There are plenty of examples of such happening. If Canadian citizens, who were later annexed into America, and considered American citizens by the US Government, they'd be considered domestic terrorists by the US Government for attacking US Government/Military infrastructure which the pipeline was a key thing to.

At the time of the Pipeline bombing, it was not domestic because it happened in Canada. America already had a civil war that cost the lived of 600,000 Americans. I am sure they would do everything in there power to never do that again. Even terrorists have their rights, can't just shoot them in the back of the head, no matter how much you want to. I am not defending terrorists, but if Americans started ignoring their own laws and freedoms, then they are no better then the nations that support terrorists.

Still a pipeline bombing does not make the killing of hundreds if not thousands of Canadians "Okay" and it doesn't justify the invation of a sovereign nation without a declaration of war.

You don't keep up with the details in world politics do you? Well after personally fighting in two wars, one was for 6 years, and the last just a year, I can say that no government is exempt from breaking it's own laws if they truly wish to do so. Especially in the Fallout Universe where you have shadow groups like the Enclave pulling strings when and where they want. Just because the bombing might have happened in Canada, by Canadians, doesn't mean the US (who was vitally supplied by the pipeline,) ignored such an attack and let it be left to the Canadians, they would have gotten involved themselves.

A real world example being the First Gulf War, when Saddam invaded Kuwait. No Americans were attacked or harmed, but we went in there anyway.

I disagree. When we're talking about something like an oil or gas pipeline it could be used as justification for an incursion - the attack can be used as "evidence" that the country is unable to meet its international obligations and as such justify the use of a "Security Force"....

I do keep up on world politics. Can't get into to much detail but the wars being fought now are because thouands of American civilians were killed on American soil. They technically aren't wars because they never declared war on another nation. They declared war on terrorists that killed thousands of Americas. They are there still to this day because the Governments of those nations ask them to be there.

America invaded Canada because a pipeline was damaged? Really thats equal to Pearl Harbor our 911? That makes the killing and bombing of Canadian people and cities ok? Really?

Then when those Canadians become American because of the Annexation. American troops have the right to kill Americans in the streets? So if the military today went out and gunned town a bunch of Americas for not liking the Government.. that would be ok?


I am agree with Randel Clark. What happened in Canada, was criminal and sickening. America was just looking for any reason to invade Canada, Just like Hitler used any reason no matter how small and pointless to annex nations and invade. They never declared war, and in the end killed their own people.

[quote name='Styles' timestamp='1320109989' post='19004278']America invaded Canada because a pipeline was damaged? Really thats equal to Pearl Harbor our 911? That makes the killing and bombing of Canadian people and cities ok? Really?[/QUOTE\

America invaded Iraq in the 90s, because it invaded Kuwait. No Americans were killed or harmed during the invasion of Kuwait, but what was there was resources that America depended on and needed. I never, nor am I, trying to compare the pipeline attack to something like Pearl Harbor or 9/11, especially when I made the clear example twice of Kuwait. The pipeline is the same thing as Kuwait, not Pearl Harbor and such. It might not have been an event where American citizens were harmed or anything, but the act was on infrastructure that the Fallout America needed, and obviously cared a lot about to keep control of. That's all I'm trying to point out. I'm not saying it's right, real world or not, I'm just saying that's the reasoning. Having been involved with these kinds of people intimately, I know a thing or two about how they're thinking, than just what they say or show on TV.

The American Government considered it domestic terrorism, because they considered the Canadians Americans.

Well I dont think the Canadians thought like that, any Canadian would say he is Canadian, and therefore America would be acting just like Hitler, who went into Austria and I believe Czechslovakia under teh pretense that they were "Germans".

And it has been described as criminal, they start to look oddly like a certain group back from 1933-1945.

The First Gulf War was because Iraq invaded another nation. Kuwait was an ally to America and other nations. Iraq also threatend to invade Saudi Arabia.

Nations go to war to defend allies. That is justifiable. There is not justification to go "hey they have the resources we want, lets use any minor excuse to invade, ransack and commit war crimes." That kind of thinking is what the Nazis used to annex and invade other nations.



This^

America was the bad guy when it came to the invation and annexing of Canada.

I wasn't saying Canadians saw themselves as domestic terrorists, they of course would have seen themselves as Canadians, but the Fallout American Gov., would have if they were considering them Americans during/after the annexation period. Once you're in a club, you're apart of the club, even if you don't consider yourself to be and the rest do, everything changes no matter what your opinion is.

The thing is Canada was not apart of America till 2077. America was invading and killing Canadians long before that. The attack on the pipeline was long before 2077.

Then is it justifiable to support an ally, not just because they're an ally, but because they also have resources you want? Kuwait was more than just the US saying, "Hey Iraq, stop invading our ally Kuwait or we'll have to step in," it was also because of resources and other matters.

Without going into too much politics, most wars fought today or yesterday, are only justifiable when you look at certain aspects. Most of the time, these aspects are only a small piece of the entire pie, and the rest is really a hard thing to look at, and is why many don't. In the Fallout Universe, the American invasion of Canada wasn't just because they wanted Canada, but because of course resources, and they were willing to use any excuse they could, which was (even though no Americans were harmed), the attack on the Alaskan pipeline.

Yeah I know, so what? Canadians were split on the matter of American annexation. Some were for it, others were against it. Those who were against it, were probably getting shot up in gunfights and things like that, while the other Canadians who were with the Americans, were suiting up and probably gearing up as a puppet government for the US. There are plenty of examples of that happening to, that I don't really need to go into, but you can look them up yourself if you want.

Pretty much every war is over resources. WW2 was over resources, the Axis wanted more land and resources so they invaded others.

Yeah Kuwait had oil, but it was an ally of America and what Iraq was going was threatning global stability. Iraq invaded Kuwait because they wanted its resources, they used the same thinking as Germany and America in the Fallout timeline "they are pretty much already ours."

Going to war to defend and ally even if that ally has alot of oil is justifiable. Invading a nation without a declaration of war simply because you want their resources isn't. Using the pipeline as their justification to commit war crimes was total bullcrap.

America was the bad guy. America was like Germany eying Czechoslovakia and Poland .

America was also doing the same to Mexico before the Great War. Wonder what Mexico did to warent America's invation. Maybe America got tired of them crossing the border illegally and decided to use that as a reason to take over. :rolleyes:

There was no justification for what America did to Canada and its people and later when Canadians where Americans. They were the bad guys.



Hitler and Stalin set up Puppet Governments as well in the nations they invaded. They also invaded countries with no justification and committed mass murder. So they did that, America can do it in to Canada?

Also have to remember that it was an American news agency that was saying that Canadians were ok with the Annexation.

Again Americas were taking over Canada long before 2077, long before the Annexation.

And Saddam just two years before, was considered a US ally, who had no problem going to war while the US just watched. Also during the Iran-Iraq war, he was assisted by the US. If Iraq invaded Kuwait in '89 or something like that, I doubt the US would have done much to say otherwise, and the US would probably never have gotten involved.



Going to war to defend and ally who has oil as a resource, is justifiable if you're going to war just to defend the ally. But is going to war with an ally who has oil as a main resource, and having the ulterior motive to keep that oil in their hands, justifiable? No.



I'm not denying that the US was the bad guy on the scene in the Fallout Universe, but you have to understand the reasoning behind their motives, not just what it seems to be, because they're the bad guy.

He turned his back on America. Alliances can fall apart. Just like the long standing alliances between nations fell apart in the Fallout Universe and everyone started hating everyone and later everyone nuked everyone.



Still justafiable. Now if you made an alliance with them because they had resources and decided not to defend them. That's bad. Alliances are a two way street. Kuwait is a tinny nation, that clearly could not defend themselves against a larger power, like Iraq, so they allied with America. America got oil in return.



So we agree America was the bad guy. I understand why they did why they did. I am simply saying what they did was bad/criminal.

Compared to Iran in the 80s, Iraq was a meager nation too, just like Kuwait. Not necessarily in geographical size, but in military and everything else like that. If the US hadn't involved themselves in someways, Iraq would look a lot different, and we could have possibly ended up in Iraq, defending Saddam against the Iranian Ayatollah.

It's a sickening sight to see, when you actually see what defending some nation's resources or whatever, is like. Defending a nation just because of it's resources is just as sickening as the Fallout US invading Canada, or Nazi Germany invading Czechoslovakia, etc.



And I believe I never disagreed, I was just pointing out the fact that they weren't just bad for the reasons seen, the reasoning behind it was a lot deeper, or so it would have to be. As I've stated in other posts.

Yeah, right. :rolleyes: Canucks who get up on thier soapbox about it want everyone to think the Princess Pats or the Van Doos set fire to Washington....which is nonsense. Canada...or whatever it was called back then...had as much to do with it as Finland did with Russia taking Paris in 1815. You were kind enough to host thier commander after we shot him dead in the act of futilely trying to take and sack Baltimore a few weeks later though.

Below were the British forces at Bladensburg...the battle that opened the way to DC for the British. The troops who went on to DC were among them.

Foot (Infantry)

* 1st Battalion, 4th (King's Own) Regiment of Foot
* 21st Regiment (Royal North British Fusiliers)
* 1st Battalion, 44th (East Essix) Regiment of Foot
* 85th Regiment of Foot (Bucks Volunteers)(Light Infantry)
* 1350 Royal Marines
o 2nd Battalion, commanded by Major Malcolm
o Companies of Colonial Marines from 3rd Battalion, commanded by Major Lewis
o composite battalion (formed from ship-based Marines) commanded by Captain Robyns

You have three English and one Scottish Foot Regiment, a ad hoc Royal Marines unit made up of the Marines assigned to the British invasion fleet, and two more Marine units made up of freed slaves from the Carribean and the US. None of them were raised in what is now Canada. If there were any "Canadians" there, it was individuals, not formed units.

Misunderstanding on my part then. We both agree on the larger picture, just debating the details. :foodndrink:

Also people can we stop with the War of 1812 stuff? Besides America was lucky as hell Britain agreed to let everything go back to the way it was when the war ended. Cause if they didn't pretty much the area around the great lakes would have ended up becoming Canada. Britain didn't want to occupy a bunch of pissed of Americans, they already tried that. So they agreed to give back all the land they took back from the Americans in that war.

Have you ever heard of Sir Isaac Brock, Tecumseh, or Charles De Salaberry. All technically not Canadians liek you argue, except they were adn fought for the British Empire, and for Canada during the war.

There were hundreds fo Milita Units fighting in the colony and in Amerca during the war.

Saying the British did it, is just saying the Canadians did it.

The Sierra Depot GNN Transcript holodisk was said by Chris Avellone to be non-canon having been modified by the soldiers there. The whole agreed to be annexed sounds like the kinda treaty you sing with a gun to the back of your head anyway.


There is nothing Lore wise to support any cities were bombed. I believe the tension started when the U.S wanted to use troops to guard the stretch of pipeline that went throughout canada. By 2069 the tensions were high as the U.S military was increasingly drawing on Canada's resources cutting down vast stretches of timberland. By 2072 when the attack on the Alaskan pipeline occurred. The annexation had already begun. The attack merely provide the excuse to finish the job.
But they did certainly kill civilians and protestors

As to the subject of the war of 1812. The war ended because the major causes of the war had disappeared. With Napoleon Abdication in 1814, Britain no longer had a reason to interfere with U.S and French trade and stopped kidnapping American sailors and forcing them into the British Navy. Attacking Canada was a retaliatory reaction to perceived British offenses. So after two years the fighting was at a stalemate, neither side saw a way to gain a deceive advantage. So Britain gave back what it took, the U.S gave back what it took.

The Fallout intro shows a Canadian being executed on Canadian soil. The buildings around him are destroyed. This would hint that the city was destroyed by American forces. If they attacked and destroyed one city, it is reasonable they did it to other cities as well. Randall Clark descibed his time in Canada: "Canada wasn't scary, just sickening, the criminality of it." Now that tells me alot of war atrocities were happening in Canada by American forces. Such as the bombing of cities and killing of citizens.

The attack on the pipeline happened because American forces were taking whatever they wanted from Canada. Cutting down vast stretches of timberland that wasn't theres to cut down. I agree the attack was just the excuse they need to fully take over Canada.

Tecumseh would technically be fighting for then. But he was really fighting to gain land in America for his people. It just so happened that Britain was the opposing force.

The only Canadians I recall in the war were fighting in Canada. And there was one battle which I forget that was only Canadians.

im not american. And i didnt mean it that way, i apologize for any offense i might have caused.