One of the quests I really enjoyed was the one concerning Saadia and Kematu because you didn't really know which side to believe. The cynical side of me picked Kematu's story but thinking back I don't think I would do the same. I'd like to have this thread be a sort of a trial for the quest to see what arguments can be brought forth for Saadia's guilt or innocence. It's to enjoy so don't take it too seriously.

Well for my opening defense I would like to say that I think Saadia is actually innocent as the actions following her supposed betrayal of Taneth do not make sense. First off she is a member of the nobility in Taneth. I've seen no reasoning in her betraying not only "just a city" but her family as a whole. Secondly, if she was a traitor, why would she hide in Skyrim? If she sold out the city to the Thalmor, why wouldn't she find refuge among them? Also Hammerfell has successfully resisted the Dominion at this point. So it is possible that Kematu, since he is from the deserts, where the Crowns live (opposition group to the Forebear which Saadia is) is simply kidnapping Saadia for whatever reason.

Those are good points.
However, I think she is guilty because of the way the Redguards handle her when you take her outside the city.
If Saadia had been right, wouldnt they just have killed her there and then?
Instead they paralised her so she could be transported back to Hammerfell to stand on trial.

I suppose well never know.

The Thalmor are depicted as having selfish and evil motivation. Just because she sold out, it doesn't mean the Thalmor have any love for her.


yh. I think you're probably right. Why would the Thalmor employ a Redguard unit to hunt her down. Surely they'd employ assassins more in line with the Dark Brotherhood. They'd be less obvious for the task.

Also there is a strong possibility that the Alik'r being Redguards, even though paid assassins, wouldn't work for the Thalmor. The Aldmeri Dominion under Thalmor rule invaded Hammerfell and killed many Redguards, Plus they now still own and occupy the far southern parts of Hammerfell.

Its definitely a difficult one to decide on. On my main character who is supposed to be a righteous character. I sided with the Alik'r but I haven't as yet led her out. On my Redguard character I've made, I made it that the Alik'r were in the wrong.

I hope she is in the wrong then I won't feel bad on my main character if I lead her out. I was contemplating wiping them all out.

No, the Dominion was completely removed from Hammerfell.

Also, there isn't enough information either way for us to really know who is right.

I'm sure I read somewhere that as part of the treaty, the far southern parts of Hammerfell are still under Thalmor control

If they killed her right then, it could cause a scene. Would the Nordic guards really "get" what is going on if something like that happened?


Although the Thalmor methods may be harsh, I don't know if "evil" really fits the world of TES that's fairly relativist and dualistic. The concept of Talos being a god infringes upon very basic tenants of High Elf philosophy and makes certain ideological claims which frankly would offend me too were I Altmer. However, my RL sensibilities tell me that freedom of religion is only sensible. That the Thalmor have certain methods that we may despise, this is true, but they are in no way unique.

And it wouldn't require the Thalmor to love Saadia for what she did. But if she betrayed the city, she'd have some sort of gain no? Wealth? Power? Something. She wouldn't end up being some floozy kitchen wench freezing her ass off in Skyrim. At the very least, she would have some level of protection given to her for her services.

People betray those that care about them frequently. One minor example of this is the Dark Brotherhood quest where the client, Muiri, wants you to not only kill the lover that wronged her, but a member of the family she loved who left her out in the cold.


This is your strongest point. Although I don't think the Thalmor would open their arms to her, she might not flee to another province that is more or less resisting the Thalmor.


This might be true. The Thalmor may not be involved with this at all, and it's just Kematu's band capturing a political opponent.

I just looked it up...

They did but Hammerfell refused to hand it over so the Redguard fell out with the Empire and went on an independent war against the Aldmeri forces in Hammerfell. The last of the Aldmeri forces eventually withdrew from Hammerfell

One of the reasons for the civil war is that the Nords feel like if the Imperials kept fighting they would have won. As I said One of the reasons, Talos being another obvious one. The reason the Nords and Redguards feel this way is because the Redguards rejected the treaty and drove the Thalmor from their shores by themselves. They got their land back. If they were capable of forcing a stalemate on the Thalmor by themselves just imagine what would have happened had the empire stayed in the fight? The Aldmeri Dominion might have been dissolved or at the very least not have the capacity and power to meddle in the affairs of man.

On topic. Any way I look at the quest it feels like they left it open ended so it really is more about how you feel rather than any evidence. The Alik'r seemed pretty determined to catch Saadia though. If we are to understand this we need to establish a solid motive for the Alik'r wanting Saadia. Now I don't really remember Saadia's side of the story nor her reasons for Kematu coming after her. Would someone be so kind?

According to Saadia, she spoke out against the Aldmeri Dominion, and that the Alik'r (being mercenaries hired by the Dominion) were looking to drag her back to Hammerfell for an execution. Maybe, she said she isn't really sure why they are after her.

The way I break it down is someone would only be in exile for supporting the ousted power, not the one currently in residence. It makes no sense for someone to be exiled for opposing the Thalmor, since that describes most of Hammerfell.

But she isn't just some Joe Redguard off the street. She's nobility.

Okay...

What makes me believe Saadia is that the Alik'r guys hunting her are found lairing in a bandit cave. If they are on the up and up, then why are they bedding down with criminals? Would U.S. Marshals chasing an escaped prisoner make camp with a bunch of crack dealers? Also, why are they not going to normal diplomatic channels? An Ambassador from Hammerfell ought to be going to either the High King (which granted is kind of hard now that he is dead), the Jarls, or even the Empire and asking them to have the local authorities assist in the capture and extradition of a wanted criminal. But they don't even want to tell the Whiterun guard what they are really up to. They do not even have a warrant for her arrest from Hammerfell. Everything about them is fishy, and screams that they are hired thugs.

Their hesitance to openly state their goals could just be because relations between Hammerfell and the Empire are a bit shaky considering the war and secession.

Its so hard to decide who is right.

the fact that it is Hammerfell mercenaries and not Thalmor makes sense as Thalmor are out of Hammerfell, The Alik'r were contracted whilst she was still in Hammerfell. What ever she did must have been damaging to the Thalmor for them to go to lengths of hiring a contract on her - provided this side the story is true that is.

If the Alik'r are telling the truth then again it makes sense for them being underground in Skyrim, as they have no rights there. Its like Russian or French police going over to England without permission to arrest someone.

If the police in one country want to arrest a fugitive hiding out in another country, they use official, diplomatic channels to ask that person be extradited. If the suspect is at large, then the police of the second country are tasked with capturing the criminal, possibly with representatives of the first country acting as advisors. This is assuming that the second nation is willing to extradite of course. It is done all the time, and some nations refuse to extradite all the time. For example, Ira Einhorn (the Unicorn Killer) murdered his girlfriend because she broke up with him, and fled to France. After he was discovered, the U.S. began the extradition process to have the French ship him back to America. It took 4 years of legal and polticial wrangling, but eventually the French police did send Einhorn back to the U.S. to serve a prison sentence.

Sneaking around means that what they are doing is simply not legal. It is kidnapping if they are taking the suspect alive, and murder if not. For example, the Mossad's capture of Adolf Eichmann was like this. Whether or not the suspect is actually guilty, what the hunters are doing is still a crime. It may sound like a bunch of legal b.s. but it boils down to the sovereignty of the nation involved. No one wants people from other countries secretly running around and kidnapping the people who live in their own nation. Imagine if Chinese commandos were kidnapping people in America, taking them back to China, and executing them?

The Empire wouldn't just let them openly take a pro-Thalmor traitor: it would jeopardise relations with their Altmeri 'advisors.' Whether Jarl Balgruuf would, on the other hand, is another matter entirely.

We've no use for Deontology. 12 kinds of Raga honor are at stake.

I was about to go back and also say, that seeing that the Empire is collaborating with the Thalmor, there is a case for Hammerfell not believing they would extradite. For all we know, they may have even tried the legal route and been turned down. Of course, once the Stormcloaks take over, that all seems unlikely.

But there still is the fact that they allied themselves with bandits. It makes it hard for me to believe anything they say.

They're pretty mad.

As someone pointed out though, the Dominion was ultimately pushed out of Hammerfell. The way I see it is that while the Aldmeri were still in Hammerfell, Saadia decided to turn traitor on a city and open the gates to the Thalmor. Ultimately, the Redguards won a stalemate, reclaiming the city from the Thalmor, prompting Saadia to flee since she helped the opposition. I always turned her over since they're story made more sense to me.

I let her go. I don't care about the consequences. It's a pretty punk move to let some dude you don't even know sneak up and paralyze her. Besides, it's a pretty good fight, taking him and all his minions down. The other option involves very little conflict. I'd rather take the (relatively) difficult option.

I believe Kematu over Saadia, because he showed himself to be a decent fellow (whom I'd hate to kill) in not attacking me despite having plenty of justification to, and his story seems more plausible. Aside from the fact that the Redguards hate the Thalmor, if the Thalmor or their allies were behind it, they wouldn't have sent Alik'r warriors to find her.

Using search before starting another useless debate that's already been virtually proven (In this case Saadia IS guilty) should be listed as a rule.