I'm seeing a lot of topics about attributes VS perks (around 6 on the front page was the record), but before you continue to debate, please, DO NOT use the argument that they're making this for the casual gamer

making a game for someone who doesn't want to play a game, hell even EA doesn't do that (no wait, they did with DA2... but they're probably the only ones)

You can be SURE, that some changes are gonna be made if thet make it for the non-RPG gamers, and those changes will piss off EVERYONE here.

1 - the world will be SMALL, linear, and you won't be able to travel between towns on foot (forced fast travel, which has NEVER ^plagued the TES series)

2 - The combat system will end up being mashing a single button (we're going far from it already, as combat will definitely take some strategy, and good use of your skills/equipement)

3 - The number of possible character builds will be round 4 or 5, instead of being in the millions (it is now. do the math, if you like numbers that much)

4 - They'll make a new game every year, and it'll simply be the same with 2-3 things changed, and maybe a different button layout to make you believe there's a change

5 - There won't be anything unique AT All. Not a single weapon, not a single place, not a single NPC, everything will be randomly generated

6 - It'll be kinect compatible

7 - You're gonna have a kill-cam after finishing off an enemy

8 - There will be a cheat code option in the menu

9 - the game will have Crysis graphics, or even better (after all, it's the only way to appeal to casual gamers!)

10 - At level up, EVERYTHING gos up automatically, and you can't customize anything

11 - every weapon will hit at the same speed, thus making it that there IS an ultimate weapon that totally outclasses others, and not just by one or 2 points

12 - We'll get a lock-on option

12b - we'll get an auto-aim option with the bow (not magnetism, AUTOMATIC AIM)

13 - It will be in all of tamriel, but ironically there will only be ONE city per province, and you can't explore

14 - We'll get to summon gods/daedra lords

15 - The strongest weapon in-game will one-hit almost anything

16 - Armor will TOTALLY block damage, thus making health useless

17 - You will be ENCOURAGED to stay in the same area just to level up enough OR level scaling will be EXTREME (yeah Oblivion was guilty for that one, but the intent wasn't to make things easy... just to keep a challenge at higher levels)

18 - Bribe the count, and he'll give you his castle

19 - Random loot will ALWAYS have the best loot for your level

20 - Enemies won't detect you before you attack

well that's all I can think of for now, but seriously, before posting the same argument with the [censored] attitude "we're a different race than casual gamers! they don't like games, they want movies!", please, think it through

I was just thinking, "How many of these apply to Fable in some way?" haha

:rofl: I didnt really get the point of this thread but it is hilarious ! !

I, for the most part, agree with you (even though I'm one that currently prefers they keep attributes as is). I don't think they are dumbing down the game for the "casual player". But you have to admit that the "casual" player doesn't drop 100s...even 1,000s of hours into Beth games. Like most of my friends, they play 30-80 hours and move on. Which is fine...they are fans just like I am, and have every right to demand things they want out of the franchise.

But I'd venture a guess and say many of the people in this forum are more towards the "hardcoe" fan. People who play the game into the 3 and 4 digit hour mark. People who read the lore and get annoyed at inaccuracies. People who play and even make mods.

The point is...these people ARE a different class of player...a class I'd define as more "hardcoe", but call them what you want. And therefore, most likely would want different things than other players. So the argument holds in my opinion. Not that any side is right or wrong, just that they want different things in many cases.

Heh. A lot, actually.

...man, I hate Fable.

THIS THIS THIS.

...

LOL @ number 6.

If you own any platform that can run Skyrim, you're not a "Casual" gamer anyway.

There's a lot of debate on where the line is drawn between Casual and Real gamers, I draw the line pretty easily. A "Casual" views games as toys, a "Gamer" views games as, at the very least, an artistic medium in it's infancy. It's pretty simple really, if you expect your games to do more than entertain you for a little bit, You're a gamer.

Your jumping the gun a bit son. So far Skyrim has barely shown any signs of your foretold doom.

Don't talk sh*t about Total Fable! :stare:

U saying you cant be a casual gamer if you own a PS3 og Xbox 360 ?

You can be, if the most hardcoe game you played on your 360 was Viva Pinata... :nope:

This thread perplexes me.

Also I liked DA2.

I don't think the OP is saying those things in the list are going to happen. He/she is saying that each numbered item is what is in a casual RPG... not what is in Skyrim.

I think he means that if you follow what's going on in the world of games and aren't the kinda person who all they play is COD, NBA , FIFA etc (although the latter two are good in their own right ) you are a gamer

Pretty much. Anyone who would drop a few bills on a dedicated piece of game hardware, is not looking for just an entertaining bauble. Even if it's unintentional, they're definitely seeking a true experience, that only exists on the 360-PS3

I will be a little more clear though, It's possible because of Kinect and Move, that people just buy them thinking "Wii +1", so, I guess if you own just a 360/PS3 with a Kinect/Move, congratulations on being stupid and spending 3 times as much for an inferior product to the Wii.



Multiplayer games are kind of a tough thing to really lump in either Casual or hardcoe castes. There are some truly talented COD players out there, and that may be, quite literally, they're life and career. So you have to look at them different than gamers period. They're more drawn to the competitiveness of those experiences, than the medium itself, but without knowing why each person really plays a multiplayer game to exclusivity, I can't make that judgment. At the very least, Multiplayer spammers are a caste of their own, separate from "hardcoe" and "Casual" Gamers, maybe call them "Sporting" Gamers, I don't know.

The last thing Beth needs to do is try to appeal to non RPG gamers, like EA did with Bioware, effectively ruining them.

Although I actually define a casual gamer as someone who plays linear games. He plays casual games with little or no learning curve. He could play X action game all day and night, but hes still casual to me because of what he plays. Obviously this is no one else's definition, but I think it defines them fairly well. Anything more complex than ME2 loses them in boredom. not to say there are in depth action type games out there, but they are usually strategic, realistic shooters.

Anyone who plays games and doesn't know what Steam is are a casual, and vice versa, much better anolagy than my last one

Pretty sure daggerfall had forced fast travel for travelling between towns. Does anybody dare call daggerfall casual?

Oof...then there are a LOT of casual gamers by the definition. Not saying I don't like it...just that really cuts down on the number of HC gamers I know.

I don't think approving of the decision to remove attributes and being a casual gamer is mutually exclusive. the community seems pretty divided over the news but just as many who prefer the change are long time TES fans as the people who don't like the change.

that being said, I still believe the change is entirely about getting more casual gamers into the TES series, and I dont think there is any thing wrong with getting more people in to it, I just don't wan't the game to be hurt by it.

and I am TOTALLY against this whole attributes vs perks debate. its stupid, we had perks in OB (implemented in a different way...) I think we can have both, perks has almost nothing to do with why attributes were removed to begin with, this whole issue is spawned by attribute supporters hating the idea that any issues with loss of stats with the removal of attributes will be patched with a perk and thats just too much of a simplification of the system.

The real difference between casual and hardcoe gamers. The difference comes from where games fit into the priorities of the individual. hardcoe people will put more importance on gaming and sacrifice other aspect of life to game some more. The casual gamers don't get blueballed when they haven't played a game for a while.

The hardcoe gamers will also tend to spend their non-gaming time on game-related things. Posting in a game forum is one of those things
Arguing about game design is another clue.

HAHAHAHA !!! God this cracked me up !!!! Thank you !



I was thinking sarcasm.. in top gear !



Well, i play all. But so much more.. Never said i was casual tho i do flicker out of the gaming comunity now and then, but i always return !



I follow. But dude there are ppl out there who just have the money to spend it. That was how i got into the xbox. Have always been a PS3 man, but when i worked full time between schools i was like meh, whats this halo about.

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I think the ones talking about atributes >< perks are ppl who are afraid of change. Or the opposite. likes change.

I think you mean people who ONLY play those.
because let's be honest, we ALL at least rented some game like that and enjoyed it... while it lasted

If it's on a computer, it ain't Rolemaster, and if it ain't Rolemaster, then it's ( relatively ) casual.

I get what you're saying, but I still calling them "Casual" is a disservice to their ability. Some people have taken a forsaken dedication to a particular game. It doesn't so much become about the game itself, as it does the end result.

I do think this whole "Casual" as an insult attitude should stop. It's very reminiscent of the PC gamers thinking they are better than Console gamers for no legitimate reason. I with most people, that trying to make a game pleasing to casual and hardcoe type audiences often results in a disjointed mess of a game. Real game designers need to stick with their vision, be it intent to create an absolutely amazing "Casual" Game, or an engrossing "hardcoe" game, and not compromise the two, for sake of the bottom line only.

Someone threw in a Bioware insult, and I would have defended them up until Dragon Age 2... At least the changes from Mass Effect 1 to 2 were justifiable. Mass Effect was a poor Cover-based shooter that hid it's broken combat with RPG, if only they didn't remove any/all semblance of exploration in the sequel, I think II would have been universally better, instead of just arguably better.