I would prefer the second option. Also, I imagine it's easier to convert casual players into hardcoe than it would be hardcoe to casual, so it would be the best strategy if you want to keep some original fans around.


Sadly, this is true. Despite the "GO THE [censored] OVER HERE ARROW" on the compass, I've seen plenty of casuals still get lost and blame the game for it rather than their own ineptitude.

Now, imagine if you will, these casual players are tomorrow's game critics. Any of us know that bad reviews lead to bad sales, so in order to keep up sales, we have to cater to the general audience's needs. Sure our more hardcoe base won't complain if we keep things relatively the same and only improve aspects they want improved, but they're usually not the biggest group with the most money. So, in most cases, you have to make a decision between old fans, and money. And seeing as Bethesda is basically a company first, you can see why they're choosing to cater to more of the casual crowd. As much as we hate it, it's only helping them stay alive even longer, which is a good thing in my books.

Who knows? Maybe one day Bethesda will go back to their roots and make a game as complex as Daggerfall was. Or at least something that will cater to all audiences. But until then, we may just have to sit through the casualization of the Elder Scrolls as a franchise patiently.

Morrowind could be pretty rough. At low levels if the leveled list decided your opponent was going to pull out a claymore you could very easily be dead a few seconds into the fight.
Nothing a hasty exit couldn't solve though. I truly feel sad for the generation of gamers who don't even want to skip challenge and go straight to win. Old style games would have eaten them alive (TMNT on the NES, oh god).

Anyway, as long as things can be modded, that's all that matters to me. Mod in Morrowind style travel. Mod in difficulty. Mod out broken things.

All hope is not lost. In terms of "hard-core-iness", F3 was a progress and they allowed FNV even more. Combat in Skyrim seems more strategic than Oblivion, so some things at least seem to be going in the right direction. Also, as mentioned up, options for disabling quest helpers would be good.

I've always said that a more hard core RPG, like Daggerfall, would sell very well. It's all in the marketing. If you market the game right than you can sell anything to anyone. You don't have to dumb down the game, like Oblivion, to sell it to the casual gamer. All you have to do is market the game so that the casual gamer will get interest in your RPG no matter how complicated it is.

The option to do this is very simple - don't select the quest you are working on. The quest marker instantly disappears. You can already do this in Oblivion.

I can work with that too. But if a modder can do it in a day, they can do it in a day.

See the problem with just removing a feature without replacing it with another to fill the gap? If you are told ot go to some cave and kill a guy....in oblivion without the marker you would have no idea where the cave is.

But do you have any other info on how to get there?
Didn't think so.

... :S by everything holy and unholy... no wonder Bethesda and all the other gaming companies are having a hard time, by the madness of Sheogorath I hope you were being sarcastic, why would anyone with that mindset walk into a TES game when there are a lot of games like WoW and teletubbies around!

A level 4 peasant does not go up against daedra, heck not even a level 10 knight or a mage should still only rival thugs and bandits of similar level, wait for level 25 or 30 before going for monsters, and 40 or 50 before taking on Daedric lords I say!

I've already completed quite a few quests this way. Granted, as I've played through of a good number of quests before, I often have a general idea where to go if it is one of the quests that sends you really far away. But in my current playthrough I'm using lots of mods and I have no idea where to go for many quests. Most of the quests that send you to such-and-such cave or mine, etc., are usually not too far from the city where the quest is given.

If you were role-playing and an NPC told you the name of a particular Ayelid ruin, but not the location, you would have a clue, but you would simply have to hold off on completing that quest until you eventually found the ruin, right? If you wanted a slightly less difficult version of this, you could keep the quest marker on and then turn it off when you got to the appropriate cave, etc. At least that way the marker wouldn't tell you exactly where to go within the dungeon.

In my current playthrough, I'm applying what I learned from New Vegas hardcoe mode and instead of using fast travel, I'm making use of each journey to various cities as a way to explore all of the terrain in Cyrodiil. It's a lot of fun, even though you don't come across as many interesting NPCs while wandering around compared to New Vegas. Eventually, I hope to have a map that reveals every location (will take quite some time).

Since I have started a lot of quests without knowing exactly where to go, when I stumble upon a particular cave that is related to one of the quests it makes traveling around by foot much more interesting than fast travel. It also helps that I installed Real Hunger, Real Sleep Extended, Real Thirst, Better Cities, and several overhaul mods.

i didnt realise i was walking into a vampire thing.


in morrowind...
bandits-attack!!!!!!
daedra worshipers- attack, until the lord comes out, then i run
daedra- attack (not the very strong ones though)
vampires- run AWAY.- i actualy havent encountered vampires in a while
undead... BANZAIIIi!!!!!. i cant find any undead i cant kill.


i havent got into the expansion packs yet. but it made me very happy finding out how much i owned undead and daedra when i once struggled

You are making VERY good points, but this "ot" thing is really annoying, slow down when you write :thumbsup:

Blasphemy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR7U1HIhxfA

i dont hate all metal, just the thrash crap that is just a mash of cords and a [censored] screaming.


i would consider "the metal" by tenoc to be hard rock

Play some Tribunal = liches, nuff said

A game series as big as The Elder Scrolls they have to cater for both which is shame but I would do the same in their postion

Or add more complete sets of instructions or hints rather than putting it into a supplemental publication in order to make more money :rolleyes: I remember back to the Baldur's Gates and thoses were complete instructions. Nowdays they are like video game pamplets.

Oh, and I really haven't seen a clear definition, what is a casual gamer?

Personally, I think the concepts of "hard-core" and "casual" is something where the world would really be a much better place if the terms were never coined. That way, companies would be able to stop chasing this illusory demographic of "casual players."

And companies do need to start re-learning that there's a difference between intuitive and "simple." I still think The Sims is what started all this "casual" nonsense in the first place. It simply happened to be a perfect storm of a game that was very simple to immediately and intuitively grasp how to play - with enough emergent complexity (and, technically, some pretty high-end RPG mechanics under the hood) to please everyone.

Back on point, however - I don't think there even is a "casual" demographic - not as something you could market effectively towards (which is why they seem so very elusive.) My wife, for example. She fits the definition of a "casual" gamer, if anyone does. She loves Mass Effect (and KOTOR, as well.) Played it tons of times through. She plays on Easy (and sometimes I have to help her through certain parts - though she's improving.) She likes the story and the characters - the combat is just something she has to get through between conversations.

She also has absolutely no interest in anything made by Bethesda. Just doesn't appeal to her. It's not the difficulty that turns her off. She could care less if there was a Quest Compass or not. There's nothing so terribly complicated in any of those games that would make a casual gamer balk. It just doesn't appeal to her. She didn't connect with any of the characters - and with no way to really emote into the world with your own character, there was nothing to grab her. She had a little bit of fun for a while making characters through the facegen system, but that was about it.

My point being - catching the "casual" gamers (as I see it) has less to do with "complexity" (and I'm sorry, but I never found any of the Elder Scrolls games to have had all that intricate of a ruleset to begin with,) and more to do with the content itself. By it's very nature of design philosophy, I think a Mass Effect RPG is going to garner a more mainstream audience than something like Elder Scrolls.

(Oh, and I like having a Quest Compass. I also find there to be a world of difference between "immersion" and just plain tedium. I find two things that really cut down on the latter for me are Fast Travel and Quest Compasses, without getting in the way of the former. Though, of course, that's just my opinion...)

Heavy Metal does not sound like crap. Also, quest compasses are for people who shouldn't be playing this type of game anyway.

Annoying poll.

"This game should be like oblivion"? Keep opinions out of polls please.

Anyway, voted for second, obviously.

what do you mean "keep opinions out of polls"? oblivion annoyed many hardcoe players because it was too casual. thus i put it under not ticking hardcoes of- as it did- and above the other option

Oh wait... this type of game has a quest compass.

First option! *plays an awesome heavy metal riff* :rock:

The game should be developed based on the hardcoe fans's tastes.
And I say that because if a game pleases it's fanbase,the word of mouth will have an effect to casual fans to give it a shot and play it.
But if a game changes to the level of dissapointing the fanbase,wich are hardcoe,then word of mouth will have a negative effect.
Because if the casual gamer listen from a fan of the series that a game is bad,he will believe that the game is ultra-bad,since the the game's own fan don't like it.
But if the casual gamer listen good words from a fan he might will to play it.

A representative example of this effect is the 2009 Wolfenstein game.
The game was changed too much from it's predecessor (Return to Castle Wolfenstein) to appeal to another crowd,but the fans of the series dissapointed started complaining about the changes in the game,and everybody who wasn't a fan of the series didn't even bothered trying it.
But Wolfenstein was a great game nevertheless,and someone who wasn't a fan of the series (so he had no specific design expectations from the game) could have really liked it very much.

Let that be a lesson,and may developers consider fanbase's wishes and tastes as a priority when making games.