Nope. People are jumping into conclusions, the GI issue article didn't mention anything about attributes, and for this reason people started to think that there won't be any attributes. It's still just pure speculation, a lot of things needs to be clarified at the moment, one of those are attributes. So let's wait.

Of course, if you have proof that they are removed link me to a confirmation by a developer. If you can't, it remains speculation.

Oblivion was awsome.

However the quests became to easy with the bloody compassGPS_laserguided_active_radarhoming_target_seeker_system. Maybe it could just point to an area of a forrest, city, cave etc.

Agree, I loved Oblivion when I got it. I never had so much fun with a game before, I think people should stop whining, not everything is perfect and we should just enjoy what we have.

That said, I will love Skyrim even more, judging by what we already know, it's getting close to Morrowind in terms of narrative, and it's improving Oblivion in terms of gameplay in a huge way. That is already enough for a first day purchase.

First off Progressive Metal is the way to go.
Second if you want to see a hardcoe game that is very accessable to casuals check out a professional Super smash brothers melee match.
Third this should be how any game is made, because as long as the game isn't frustratingly hardcoe most casuals will still enjoy or buy it.
Fourth I think succellous is trolling, his post doesn't make much sense...
Fith it doesn't really matter what the few hundred people on this forum think because in all honesty we are a very small (and probably inaccurate) representation of the target audience... Plus games that pay too much attention to fans traditionally aren't very good...

This whole thread sounds like a major hate fest. I decided not to vote because I don't agree with any of your ideas or comments. The lack of respect for all gamers in this thread (on page 1) disgusts me.

Note that this message is only for the OP and others who partake in bashing other people.

hardcoe and casual are nothing more than generic labels most often misused. Most people who label ideas casual do so more as an insult to any idea they don't approve of, rather than accurately reflecting the views of the actual casual demographic (which certainly wouldn't be spending time viewing game message boards).

I think it should be challenging. I still can't beat super Mario brothers or donkey kong past a certain point but it doesn't stop me from loving those games. (for the record, those are the only games I cannot finish)

why are we supposed to design the game around people who svck at gaming. as for fighting a vampire or dremora lord at level 4....YOUR SUPPOSED TO DIE............its a vampire and or dremora lord. console games werent always built for noobs like they are now a days. i remember lots of games on the snes and genesis and even the n64 and PS1 that were difficult. they sold tons of games on the PS1 and not all of those games were "easy button" games.

at some point i think developers just got lazy. its more difficult to balance a hardcoe game that it is to balance a noob game. a hardcoe game has to keep you on the edge of survival, you have to be routinely low on ammo/arrows and only have a small number of stimpacks/healing potions available at any one time and the enemies have to be difficult enough to almost kill you all the time and successfully kill you some of the time. with todays "easy button" games it easy to balance. make all the enemies weaker than you and take longer to shoot at you and make health potions and stimpacks readily available or better yet get rid of them and just use regenerating health...........hell just have you health completely recharge if you hide behind a wall for a couple of seconds. oh......lets not forget to add auto-aim that lets you shoot people who you arent even aiming at.

i think one of the reasons people complain about how short games are these days is partly because games have become so infantile that you can make it through the game without ever getting lost because quest arrows point you exactly to where you need to go or coming up against puzzle that is really difficult and takes a bit of brain power to solve and you might only die a few times over the course of the whole game.

and morrowind is not a hard game to play. only people that svck at gaming would have a hard time at it.

A casual gamer is defined differently by different people.

My definiation of "Casual Gamer" might be different for another genre of game but when it comes to RPG's it's defined as follows: Someone who doesn't play RPG's as a Role Playing Game but as a video game.

There is a difference between Role Playing and playing the game to have fun. Anyone can pick up COD and have fun with it, or Half Life or any FPS game. Not everyone can pick up an RPG and have fun with it, unless you know how to Role Play and what Role Playing really is.

That is what Bethesda did with Oblivion, they dumbed it down so that you can pick up the game and play it without any Role Playing experience. By doing that they made it so that Role Playing really isn't entertaining anymore and if you can't Role Play than why even call it an RPG anymore?

I have nothing against casual gamers and I myself am a casual gamer from time to time, where I just want to pick up a game and have fun without too much involvement. However, there are also times when I want to really dig down and immerse myself into a complicated RPG. I couldn't do that in Oblivion. I spent well over a year playing Morrowind, character after charcter. In Oblivion I've only created 2 characters and have only completed the main quest twice. Each time I only played for about a month, maybe 2 months. So in total I've played Oblivion for about 5 months and I can't even force myself to play it again, I've tried on multiple occassions.

I want a complicated RPG that I can play for well over a year and still enjoy it.

Ok... to some people...

You know, I'm very tired with the topic "Every past time was better". There are people here who use it for the games and for the gamers as well. Well, I'm a young player, of the generation that never met the Super Nes and that consoles and began to play in times of PS1. But that doesn't make me bad, nor the games nowadays. While it's true that some time ago games used to be more difficult, that doesn't mean that the Games' World had died and everything is for n00bs (being the word "new player" no more than a stupid label). But as others has pointed, there are still difficult and great games (The Witcher or MGS3, for example) and games that, not being really difficult, are very good (aka Oblivion).

So please, stop saying that in your times games were better. You are like elder people... but in young, which is much worse.

the witcher is going to be a perfect example of what happens to games. the stalker and witcher games were designed in russia and poland respectively. they were designed exclusively for PCs because apparently the PC market is still strong over there. they were also designed for hardcoe gamers in mind and still had great sales. now we get to see what happens to games when they also get mainstreamed for consoles. im willing to bet that the witcher 2 and stalker 2 will be streamlined and simplified and made easier for the console market. i hope that they dont do it with the PC versions but im not holding my breath.

i would love to see someone from todays gaming make it through resident evil on PS1. they couldnt do it. i bet they wouldnt last more than 15 minutes before they started [censored]ing about how their health wasnt regenerating or how there was no compass showing them where they were supposed to go. why isnt there more ammo? i can see it now.

A lot of games on consoles are very easy, but there are still difficult games for them. For example, try to play Killzone 2 in the most difficult mode. I'm doing it, and I can tell you that it isn't easy at all... (Actually, it isn't easy in Normal)

As stated prior and to me a similar stance, Casual Gamers just play games to play it, "hardcoe" gamers or whatever play it to enjoy it in all its forms.

I wish I could sig that hole thing...it was amazing Oblivion definitely needs to improve in the aspects of Role playing. I tried to RP with oblivion several times but it was very difficult. I kinda just had to enjoy it as a game...which was slightly disappointing. :confused:

Way too lazy to read the long op this late, but as to the opening statement, a more realistic formulation : just make sure the casual don't find it too difficult, the rest will grumble but as usual, end up using tons of mods.

Hopefully Beth have taken notice of how Blizzard design games - namely, design the game for the hardcoe then add the casual layers later.
For example, create the game without fast travel, quest makers, pop-ups etc
Then add these as configuration options and let the player select the ones they want.

This doesn't help with Roleplaying exactly - l agree with TheEngravingMan - Roleplaying is something which I would have expected to be fundamental to Bethesda but Oblivion proved this wrong.

There are other things Beth could do t deal with the hardcoe/casual problem - for example - have a separate remote unscaled area full of puzzles and tactical combat goodness not necessary for completing the game or have a scaled main quest and scaled faction quests with a separate line of unscaled quests to become head of each guild.

if killzone is anything like left4dead 2 than hell no. i got so sick of people quitting mid game on left4dead 2 that it just left a very sour taste in my mouth concerning co-op games like that and the AI, while its good, is not the same as a human player. i had some pretty craptastic rounds in that game but i didnt up and leave just because i was doing bad in that round.

I haven't played that game. But I can say that enemies in Killzone are tough... they resist a lot, not like in other FPS where enemies are made of glass, and they're quite intelligent. Also, in the most difficult mode, you don't have pointer.

Sorry for the Off Topic...

Y'all keep throwing around the term "casual gamers".
No Elder Scrolls game could be described as casual. Casual games are things like Tetris and Singstar and Farmville.

I, for one, am so sick of the whole "hardcoe" vs. "Casual" gamer argument I could just vomit. They are such subjective, self applied labels that I find them to be utterly meaningless. If Bethesda makes a good game, that has good graphics and a good story it will appeal to a lot of people. If they don't it won't. Whether they design it to appeal to "hardcoe" gamers or not is rather pointless. I'm sure the lead design team at Bethesda were up at night worrying whether the "hardcoe" gamers were going to like Skyrim.

Designer 1: "Do you like this quest?"
Designer 2: "No. The hardcoes will totally pwn that Dragon you Newb. Make it even more hardcoe. If you do we'll sell an extra million units and then its bonuses for everyone."

not having the crosshairs isnt a big deal since i got used to playing stalker with just iron sites.........in fact having crosshairs on now is actually kind of annoying to me. i might give it a shot because it looks like you can play it solo as well. i just dont feel like putting up with more online coop crap. im glad that they made the enemies tougher............i had to mode left4dead 2 to make the zombies very slow and only killable with headshots.............you know like actual zombies are supposed to be but the AI companions kept dying because they didnt know to just shoot for the head.

If I play that game, I WANT that mod . And well, I would like non stupid allies... buit it seems we can't have everything. xD

hardcoe mode= sleep, eat, drink. Oblivion style fast travel replaced with morrowind style fast travel and other tweaks ect.

Great idea - here's how to do it.

STEP ONE. Don't fast travel. (My first playthrough for FNV lasted 160+hrs and I only succumbed to the temptation to fast travel twice, in order to rehire companions for their quests.)

STEP TWO. Don't activate the quest for whatever you're looking for. (The quest marker will disappear. This works for me with Oblivion.)

If you explore all of the cells on the map over time (much easier if you choose not to fast travel), eventually you will find all of the locations for the various quests you have started. Sure, some of the locations will be more difficult to find, but you will get to them eventually. Many quest locations will be relatively easy to find even with crappy/vague/nonexistent instructions from the NPC.

The best idea is clearly this: cater to people who have money.

Making games is a business. Period. Business decisions must be made. FULL STOP.