We've all cleared big, elaborate Bethesda caves... what do they have in common? Every stone's throw... there was an NPC (Or two, to mix it up) standing still, doing nothing in particular, looking at a wall. You'd attack them... and even if you were much stronger than them, did they raise the alarm and run to their friends? Nope... they just ran full on... and no one else in the cave would notice your battle.

Who else agrees that cave residents ought to have daily chores... bunch up far more during certain times of the day (So there's 5-6 together, drinking, sleeping, or singing, etc)... maybe give them other custom actions. If you give cave-dwellers schedules... you tell a story with each cave.

Might be a big ask,I think there's going to be around 100 plus caves?

That's a lot of stories to design and have acted out...

This. Let's be a little realistic with expectations.

Well seeing as NPCs in towns have chores and stuff, why wouldn't baddies in a cave? In oblivion they would still stand around and have random conversations with each other like other NPCs.

Very true. I could see a few overarching programming tweaks changing the behavior of Cave NPCs radically, however. Specific parameters in their new Radiant AI system wouldn't need to be painstakingly programmed... just a few doodads here and there. Like...

-An NPC sharpening his blade with a rock
-Two cave dwelling NPCs getting into an argument and subsequent fistfight (Makes for an easy stealth kill)
-NPC swimming or fishing in an underground lake.
-NPCs having a source of food and eating dinner together (or mostly together)
-NPCs drinking together
-Maybe Caves have a lookout who runs to the others if he sees you.

Group combat AI could also be changed where enemy bowmen try to get behind their Axe-wielding friends when you get too close... weaker enemies running to stronger ones for support, etc

I mainly agree with the part about cave NPCs not alerting their friends or stuff. In Oblivion, I think the conversation system and so on worked fine (for it's time!!!!), but no alerting was really something that was a flaw I think.

It's not about designing schedules, just designing tasks that the RadiantAI might pick up for them to do.
I suppose it depends on the kind of cave. Smuggling caves would likely have people coming and going from time to time. As smuggled shipments move in and out, though there would likely always be some muscle at their 'warehouse.' If it's a bandit cave, then perhaps you would see the bandits out trying to rob people at certain times. Presumably, if they robbed at night you could sneak in while some of them were out to get through easier. Or you could kill the ones while they were out so that they would be short handed. Or kill the ones inside and wait for the outside ones to come in and ambush them.

I think it's a little strange otherwise. It just seems like people are standing around in a cave for no particular reason. Which is apparently illegal. It wasn't really possible to do anything different in Morrowind or Oblivion, but I think they have the set up for Skyrim to accomplish it (though it may be a bit late in the game now). I think it would be particularly interesting if a stealth character could follow the goods to their ultimate destination. Perhaps a shop in a town which no one knew was being supplied by bandits or smugglers, and taking out said bandits and smugglers could potentially lead to economic damage to the town. Or perhaps return the economy to a town that was being choked by smugglers/bandits taking things from them.

You're actuelly right,remind me to look at info instead of plucking figures out of the air...just thought I'd read it somewhere,looking at it now,just silly of me.

Still pelenty of caves etc to poke around in.

^ This is an absolutely amazing idea!

Smuggler caves would be a big target, because they would be moving a lot of stolen, expensive goods!

It would be great if you could murder a sentry... find a hollowed out rock... or find their "contact" in town... and somehow figure out when they move their shipments. (A note, or maybe you could interrogate someone for it)

If you found this out, as a thief, you could sneak in and steal them... or as a warrior you could rush in, slaughter their guards and be rolling in your newfound loot!

In a way Fallout 3's dungeons also told their own story. Not so much with what the NPCs in it did, but how the place was decorated, the items that were laying around, a note here and there, etc.

It was the vault-stories in Fallout 3 which really made me think that this kind of Cave-to-cave AI tweaking could be done.

I think Fallout 3 overdid it a bit with all the notes (Though I did find them entertaining... they tended to get a bit old after a while). Dungeons can tell stories with more than just words... as you said, the layout is essential... it could also be programmed that certain stations (like a fire, a wheel for sharpening blades, a table, etc) could have AI preferences programmed in to them... and the whole thing could just be done via Radiant AI preferences

Yeah,A sense of history,the feeling that people lived out lives there was a nice touch.

Huh, I guess I didn't ever really notice how useless they were as individuals. Good catch, though. They shouldn't be neglected just because they're going to end up dying.

Ah,I realised where I got the 100 plus figure from,Uesp:

'There are over 130 dungeons scattered across Skyrim''

So it's dungeons,not caves...Man alive,I'll sort myself out one day,lol.

It's still a very valid objection.

This kind of programming would be likely to take time...

and it is inevitably up to Bethesda how they budget their time... and for us to hope

They made Fallout 3 great from start to finish, I'm sure they'll carry it all over.

You should definitely get more of a story out of the ghost dwellings because they were easily the most boring and least worthwhile. Friggin ghosts.... always a pain in the ass with nothing you get in return. Except ghost dust I guess. I never found ghost dust very rewarding. Even killing the ghosts, much less rewarding than some bandits yelling and wishing they could stay alive - BUT NAY! FOR SOOTH, THIS TRUSTY SABER SHALL THWART THINE HOPES OF LIVING ANOTHER DAY CAVE DWELLER NAIVE!

I agree, they should have operations going on, or things that affect the outside world/economy without getting too crazy. Like there'll be a mining operation and if you take it out, it'll affect teh price of goods or something. Of course it'll be all run by bandits (like in real life) and we'll all rejoice in being able to screw them over for awhile, and go back to maybe a randomized layout at the mine, or hydro plant, and take it down all over again so that I can endlessly slaughter everyone without resorting to killing the townspeople which never feels as good as it sounds.

Fallout 3 was good. I liked that game a lot. It never felt like a chore and it revolutionized the joy of exploring. I'm sure it'll only get better from here.

Here's to a life of exploring imaginary worlds!

Human inhabited caves in Oblivion did have NPC's who loosely followed the same schedules as town NPC's, if you ever stealthed-in and watched them.

I saw bits and pieces of schedules... but the vast majority of the time did seem to be spent either in awkward broken conversations with other people, or wall-staring.

I'd say it would be a great system and somewhat plausible. Caves with intelligent life would be in the minority I'd think. So the number of stories and activities would not be too large. I'd say 2-3 cave/dungeons with schedules per town.

Agreed with this completely. It's a good idea to have more mini-storyline, but it is pretty effort heavy.

I agree like there should be like one who could be mining and look up and see you , yell that theres an enemy to alert the others and drop the pickaxe take out a sword and run at you not just stand there and do nothing, another could be cooking, a few sleeping, another hording rats, or even reading or singing like you said.

Couple of observations, neither pro or against:

If cave-dwelling NPCs would alert others in the cave, you will eventually be over-matched by a number of NPCs and you wouldn't be able to finish the dungeon. Also, it doesn't make sense to have the first enemy you see run inside the cave yelling for help:I've never played a game where enemies run away from you.

As for dungeons telling a story: there could be some sort of quests associated with certain dungeons, and there were many of those in Oblivion, plus I am guessing there will be quests involving dungeons in Skyrim, but just randomizing many different activities for dungeon dwellers on non-quest dungeons doesn't make much sense, as you are not going to be spending that much time inside a dungeon observing NPCs and frankly, there's no much to do in a cave.

In Fallout, given the setting, there was a lot more variation in the settings and themes in the dungeons: you had military locations, newspaper buildings, bottling companies, car dealerships, power plants, etc.. so there was more material to work with as far as dungeon theme and story. In a game like Skyrim, there's caves and old castles and there's just so much you can do in a cave.

I definitely like the idea of a lookout

It'd make it feel like we were slaughtering a real unique bunch! ^_____^



Well that'd create an incentive to kill the lookout before he raises the alarm. Give him a hesitation and it should make this possible. This puts emphasis on stealth and/or magic. While a pure-bred warrior would have to face larger groups of organized and alerted enemies... a stealth character could assassinate the lookout, sneak in, and kill each cave-dweller as they were about their various tasks.



There are plenty of things that can be done to make cave communities living... breathing things.



It kind of reminds me of Goldeneye... you'd want to kill everyone quietly and kill the lookout before he raised the alarm... but if the alarm was raised, it just meant the enemy grouped up and got alerted... it didn't make it impossible, or less fun... in fact it made it invigorating.

People ran away in Fallout. Raiders ran away from me at times, or regular people, they took off. If you give the caves kind of objectives, or a reason for people to be in them, then no, not everyone would dog pile on top of you. You'd have people guarding the loot - at the ready. You'd have have a few guys roaming the halls and joining in when they see the kerfuffle. You'd have bandits strategically set to ambush as you walk through. Yeah, if you're in a field or something, they'll all attack, but in close quarters it doesn't always work that way. I don't think they should script enemies to be hiding behind doors necessarily, but certainly alert and expecting you to either come, or be killed by their friends. Once they have been alerted however, it should be much more difficult to clear than if you were sneaking or do something magic. What takes you out of it more? Somebody running for help, and getting a few buddies or going from section to section of cave dwelling encountering everyone unawares? I shouldn't be able to walk in and make a clamor only to find Chumly sleeping in the next room. If you want to go hardcoe warrior, that's the price you pay, and wouldn't you enjoy the challenge? FRESH COMPUTER MEAT!