The game doesn't even have loading screens though, and with its minimum requirements I dunno how it could be so much longer.

nah, dog. the majority of TES fans complained about the entire attribute multiplier system on leveling up and how they either had to mod it out, or were playing on a console and couldn't mod it out.

they could've gone back to Daggerfall's way of just letting you assign points from a pool, but instead they opted to look over how everything worked and completely overhaul everything. there were never skill checks in dialogue in Elder Scrolls games. attributes were just another mostly unnecessary part of an already convoluted character progression system, one they could easily encompass the entire of within a newer system, which would further allow for more depth in character creation while removing a lot of pointless micromanaging.

you can say I INCREASED INTELLIGENCE BECAUSE MY CHARACTER WAS INTELLIGENT but your character's intelligence never had any bearing on anything at all outside of your personal character sheet.

I take it the minimum requirements are low, then (by the context)? Does the game really have so few load times?

Well the recommended I mean, are pretty high, and mine aren't much higher. If he's playing at minimum then maybe.... but the minimum requirements for PC games usually isn't a great experience.

Bad day for him/her, then, prompting a disdainful rant? :shrug:

People hate change, that's nothing new. They're afraid of losing what they like and some react by hating everything new. I understand why some people think like that. I think it's stupid, but I understand it. I can'ta gree with it though, as an aspiring game designer I want to see innovation and evolution of the media, not the same stuff over and over again, I won't contribute to a stagnating gaming market if I can help it. Evolution is a good thing, trying new ways of gaming is absolutely necessary to evolve the medium.

Would you really want to play the same games year after year after year? No, of course not. If your answet was yes then you have some thinking to do. For example. I love Morrowind, it's one of my favourite games of all time. I can see flaws in it and I can see ways to improve upon it (Thanks mod community for helping out with that.) but regardless I love the game. Do I only play that game? No, of course I don't, why would I disregard an entire medium filled with diveristy to just play one game? If I played Morrowind every day from the day I got it until now, I would hate it. I would be sick to death of it and that's not something I'd like to see happen. If all games ended up being the same stuff over and over, I'd hate that too, and gaming would lose it's appeal.

I played the first Witcher game, I loved it. The combat took some getting used to, but instead of being stubborn about it and instantly giving the game a cold shoulder, I stuck with it. I got used to it and I was told an engaging story. I had a ton of fun with that game because I gave it a chance and the Witcher 2 is one of my most anticipated games this year, only beat out by Portal 2 (Which I loved), LA Noire and possibly Skyrim. I'm not sold on the last one yet, but you can bet I'll give it a chance before dismissing it.

Is the combat as bad as what I've been hearing about?

depends on what you mean by "bad". if you didn't enjoy Monster Hunter you probably wouldn't enjoy this.

QTE's, especially in RPG's, troubles me greatly.

I'm going to start this post with one very simple simple and up-front statement: I have faith that Skyrim will be an enjoyable game.

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, on to things that piss me off!

Morrowind isn't just the greatest RPG ever made to me, it's the greatest game period. As much as I love Metroid (and I really, really do), MegaMan, Final Fantasy, Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath, the Tokyo Xtreme Racer series, Shenmue, and a crap load of other games, none of them can ever really touch Morrowind.

There are some very important reasons for this, all of them important because anyone looking to top it will need to embrace and love every single one of them like would their own newborn child. They are as follows...

1) An unforgiving nature: Morrowind has this in spades, and it is beautiful. A big part of this is the open cities, you can't feel safe inside one, because the animals are still going to get to you. There are walls, but they're not seventy feet high (except in Mournhold, but that's a different story), and there's no huge gates to complete them, just gaps big enough for Karstaag to waltz right through if he were nearby. Then there's the quests. The directions are crap, and even when you know where to go, it's miles away, and there's no shortage of things trying to eat you if you aren't chicken enough to use the boats and silt striders. I remember when I joined the Fighters Guild, being a warrior type, and started taking orders from Eydis Fire-Eye in Balmora. I had barely gotten off the boat and talked to Caius, and here I am being directed to do quests for a guild that get me killed even after I grab some decent gear. And that's to say nothing of the notorious Puzzle Box Hunt.

The whole game hungers for your often embarrassing demise, and it will get it from day one until the day you quit playing. So your Level 100 now, and can kill Golden Saints with one blow? GAME CRASH!! Now what?!

Okay that last bit was sort of a joke, but it is true, progress too far and be punished.

2) Depth: Although after awhile I didn't enjoy doing the Morrowind MQ very much (everything gets stale at some point), it remains one of the deepest and best-written stories I've ever seen. If the MQ was a novel, it would kick the crap out of most books I've read. The million shades of gray, the things the player learns, the intrigue they become involved in, the escalation, it all works so beautifully.

3) Environment: The province of Morrowind is such an alien place to be. There's swamps, but they're not our swamps filled with crocs and Deliverance hillbillies. There's wastelands, but they're not our deserts filled with cactii and rattlesnakes. There's coastal areas, but they're not our beaches filled with seashells and hot chicks. Then there's the giant-ass active volcano perpetually covered by the nastiest storm of red hate there is. And ruins of the Dwemer, one of the coolest races ever created.

The only creature in Morrowind found in our own world is the rat. (I'm not counting Solstheim or Mournhold, they're not really the core game).

4) The lore: Granted, the lore extends to all the provinces, and other lands, but in Morrowind its at its deepest and its best. I don't want to bash on Skyrim, but let's face it, we've been there in other games, mythos-wise, haven't we? Can't say the same of Morrowind, at least I can't.

5) Dagoth Ur: Yes, I know what you're thinking, that he was a disappointing final boss. But think about it, is that because he wasn't interesting, or because his overall physical design was flawed? Dagoth Ur as a character, as a villain, is freaking awesome. I imagine a Morrowind made with today's technology, and I practically cry, and not in sadness. Dagoth Ur would be a huge part of what would make such a game fun and interesting. I picture him showing up when you least expect it, delivering a message to his "old friend", right before he summons a swarm of Ascended Sleepers to seriously jack up your day. (Rather reminiscent of Jagar Tharn, eh?) You finally make it up Red Mountain, past the diseased creatures, into Ur's citadel, through his gauntlet of horrid things, and face him like the bad-ass Nerevarine that you are (or aren't, if that suits you), at which point proceeds to sick the mechanical god he's been building on you while hurling spells like a mad man.

Mehrunes Dagon may be a Daedric Prince, but it took a lot for him to even step foot in Tamriel. The Loinclothed One was already here, and there was only one thing that would ever change that, and it was up to you do it. Not Nerevar's descendent, that you have to locate. YOU.

6) Freedom: Do I even need to explain this? You can do anything you want in Morrowind. Start a quest and ignore it forever. Pick something up that's important and be able to drop it where no one but Waldo will ever find it again. Don't feel like slaughtering Daedra? Go pearl-diving! And slaughter fishes instead...

The best thing about all these qualities? Every one of them can be greatly improved upon. And more. For everything Morrowind does right, it gets wrong. The game knows nothing of balance, the animations are sub-par (and not just by today's standards), most NPCs that aren't tied to anything are vapid and boring, I could go on.

The problem is, as much as I think Skyrim will be fun, and as much as the main issues I had with Oblivion have been addressed to my satisfaction with the game, I don't see Bethesda taking this route very well. Sure, they could do far worse. They could dumb the game down to where all you're doing is fighting dragons. That's it. No other monsters, no other quests, no other tasks to perform, just dragon-slaying. But it isn't good enough that they don't go that far. They need to go farther, in the other direction. Skyrim really should be the biggest and most unforgiving game imaginable. I don't think it will be. But at least it'll still be fun.



As you can probably guess, I agree wholeheartedly. There's yet to be an instance where such terms have led to a game I could honestly label "better". Granted, I'm sure there's people who think Morrowind is dumbed-down from Daggerfall, and I wouldn't know, but I doubt that that's really true.

I would never turn my back on my core fanbase, ever. They support my ability to make a sequel to a game that took a long time but proved worthy of attention, I'm going to respond in kind by thinking of them, and only them. It's not like only those people are ever going to play any of the games I make. Word-of-mouth does wonders, it brings games to the attention of people who like such games, but don't know they exist yet. That would be my goal. I don't want Madden fans looking for the next big popular game to play, I want RPG fans looking for something a little different, a little daring. I don't care about dragging people in who don't usually care about RPGs. I don't hate them, but they don't deserve a voice in my arena.

One of the biggest falsehoods I can think of is that getting everyone playing every type of game imaginable is a great thing. I don't think so. I don't belong in the NFL, and some people just don't belong in heavy gaming.

*sighs* I really need to finish my novel and get it sold, I'm tired of not having money to realize dreams like that. Seriously.

It's a shame that single sentence killed any validity that post could have had.

Why? Daggerfall didn't really have much substance besides the sheer number of random quests.

We can discuss that through PM's if you want, but i'd rather not turn this thread into that debate.

My post has plenty of validity with or without any accuracy on that statement, thank you very much.

It's a perfectly valid opinion. If you have no problem with my own of Oblivion not being "dumbed-down" from Morrowind and Oblivion being my favorite game, period, I've got no problem with your own opinion.

Morrowind was dumbed down from Daggerfall. I'll leave it at that.

It is hard for me to call Oblivion "dumbed-down", yes, much as I pretty well loathe the mentality that seemingly bore it to an extent. But the problem for me is that much of what it does better than Morrowind has to do with technology. I'm sure this could be applied to Morrowind as well, judging by what I've seen of Daggerfall. My doubt is that it is to nearly the same degree. I acknowledge that I don't know for certain.

Something I need to explain: I've long looked at every new installment in the ES series as being the game that Bethesda could only have made after learning from the ones before it. From Daggerfall up to Skyrim, they learned and improved, with every single one, even Oblivion. Skyrim looks to be the, thus far, ultimate culmination of that process. I'm looking forward to it, I doubt I will hate it.

But that doesn't take away from my feelings about the overall approach of starting a series, building a fanbase that loved what you were doing at first, then doing everything you can to build on top of them and inviting everyone to join. Every game company I can think of does this, and it is disappointing. It is what's led the gaming industry to the size its at now, which I'm not happy with either. There is such a thing as too big. We don't necessarily need these billions of dollars to keep doing what we love. It all started with pen and paper after all.

Actually it started with stories, but sure whatever. Tabletop can take the glory THIS time, since so few people seem to mention its awesome.

i think people need to come up with an agreed-on definition of "dumbed down" before we start talking about whether or not specific games are dumbed down. i don't consider "they aren't the same game" to be an indication of dumbing down.

Here's my take on it...

From Daggerfall to Morrowind, the only thing they really simplified was the character creation. Enchanting/spellmaking was still just as complex, stats and skills still mattered on your success in combat, alchemy actually seems better in Morrowind (it was pretty useless in Daggerfall), combat still has different types of swings, etc. They removed a bunch of skills, but they were the useless ones like language skills (most of which don't actually do anything).

From Morrowind to Oblivion, they simplified a lot more. Fatigue became practically pointless, enchanting/spellmaking was much more limited, the agility attribute was rendered useless (unless you're using a bow), lockpicking became a joke, levitation is gone (along with many other spells), etc.

From Oblivion to Skyrim, they removed attributes altogether, and scrapped multiple skills without adding any new ones.

There are a lot of Daggerfall fans who would disagree with that statement.

Spot on.

That would be nice, yes. We all have our own at the moment, though plenty of people can get behind the same banner every once and awhile.

My basic definition is any game that is a sequel, or simply some kind of similar follow-up, that has been developed with the goal of attracting gamers who either don't usually delve into that genre, or, even worse, don't play games at all. I say this because this is the mentality that I see creating games made to be a little easier to slip into, more palatable if you will, to such people. People who wouldn't normally be interested. People, to me, who shouldn't count as much.

Something I need to add, since it will probably be brought up: I came into the ES series with Morrowind. I played it on the Xbox, because I already had one (so that I could play Shenmue 2 and Doom 3, for the most part), and not the money to upgrade a PC. Which didn't exist. I'll admit I over-estimated how much that would've actually cost, but still.

The only reason I'm not an Arena player is because I just didn't know it existed at the time. I would've liked it, no doubt, especially back then. Daggerfall, probably the same. I've always loved RPGs, and looked for a good ones besides Final Fantasy III for quite some time. Then I found Morrowind, thanks to Extended Play.

I will admit that I've yet to touch Morrowind's predecessors, something I'm not exactly proud of. But let's face it, Morrowind is pretty distracting when you get it on PC and start playing with mods.

Then I guess they see something that I'm missing.

I'm not talking about changes btw, just dumbing down. Daggerfall has bigger dungeons and hidden passages because it's more dungeon crawler gameplay. Morrowind's open-world gameplay is not dumbed down, just a different style.

they brought back enchanting, implemented a crafting skill (which is new, in fact), and added perks, which is a whole level of depth that we won't actually understand until the game's out. it's way too early to say anything like that.



how is Oblivion any different? how is Skyrim any different?



you totally should! Daggerfall in particular is fantastic, and even better it's free!