Don't forget that you on average have 100's of more HP then enemies on low levels too.

Im only going to comment on this because some of the things you said were pretty ridiculous but...

This is ridiculous. None were very hard, neither hindered me more, so for you to say that ties are not allowed is again ridiculous.

Also lore should be taken into account. The Enclave Remnants in the NCR ending if recruited carve a huge path of destruction through Arizona according to ending slides. That would pretty much settles the case.

Most likely the CL would find out they are at war with the Enclave when Flagstaff or wherever Caesar was ate a nuke. The advantage of fighting a Totalitarian state is that if you can lop off it's head, the body dies quickly. I don't think CL would stand a chance against the Enclave if both had the same game mechanics. They'd take out Caesar at the outset and svcker Lanius into massing the Legion's remaining troops to counter-attack then wiping them out with thier Airpower advantage. Then it would be a mop-up operation for the Enclave.

I gotta agree with Gab Talon Company gave me a harder challenge then both of them, but out of Fallout 3's enclave and The Legion I have to go with the legion Their assassin's gave me trouble in the beginning of the game, didn't mess with them in the middle and in the end they wasted me more then I'll like to admit

Well put. :foodndrink:

Thats almost exactly what I was thinking.

We are talking about the Enclave fresh from FO3, with all the crappy gameplay mechanics? Caesars Legion, one Centurion with a Super Sledge could kill them all.

Yeah... Infact, I'd like to see someone put a Centurion with a super sledge in a fighting cage against ten Enclave from FO3, and don't mod any armor or health values. Centurion's got DT, Enclave's got DR. Ready, set, go.

That'd be awesome to see at the thorn

Except that the Enclave too is very similar to a totalitarian state, without leadership in a Fallout 2 endings the remnants of the Enclave all join a fascist NCR. But yeah, the rule still holds true and the Enclave could just carpet bomb the Legion's leaders and it would destroy itself.

they pretty much were both reallly, really easy..
though i will say Autumn was a [censored] compared to Lanius

The Enclave is more Authoritarian.....the President has a lot of power but is not all-powerful. He replaced someone else, and one day he will be replaced in turn. Assassinating Richardson (yes I know the Chosen One blew him and 80% of the Enclave up in the Oil Rig) would have little effect on the Enclave, wheras assassinating Caesar would doom the Legion in fairly short order.

Ok so I guess the answer is the Enclave is SUPPOSED to be able to destroy the Legion. A faction that uses Football pads as armor. And If they made another game with both factions that's what would happen.

Most all of the cute tricks CL have been pulling on the NCR wouldn't be available against the Enclave. They don't care if the Legion hires proxies to attack Wastelanders...it saves them the trouble of killing them themselves. Not to mention there would already be fewer of them.....if it had been the Enclave at Bitter Springs not one Khan would have survived. How are they going to even find the Enclave's bases, much less infiltrate them? Nail some of thier people to telephone poles? Fine....they'll retaliate by upping the ante, like dropping a tac-nuke on one of the CL's settlements. The Enclave isn't afflicted with Political Correctness....the CL would never know what hit it.

Electing a new leader on the Oil Rig though was kind of a moot point, they all grew up wanting the same thing, listening to the same propaganda.

What do they want? The restoration of freedom and democracy!
What's the problem? Mutants scum control the mainland!
What's the solution? Genocide!

Whilst the Enclave does obviously have the advantage of having reems of red tape and rules on standby, like the Presidential Line of Succession, so they are not entirely lost; the citizens and grunts [i]really do depend on some form of leadership, as I mentioned, back in the utopian pre-F3 days, an ending was that the Navarro personnel simply joined a fascist NCR; the NCR were the variable, not the Enclave.

The Enclave would tear Caesar's Legion a new orifice with impunity. A single vertibird on a strafing run would annihilate whole cohorts.

Yes, but because the OP said Fallout 3 Enclave the CL would always win.

The Enclave was a Authoritarian Regime ruled by a Oligarchy...their vulnerability was their low numbers and how they had most of their eggs in one basket (the Oil Rig). Richardson couldn't just kill whoever he wanted to, he had to justify his actions to the other power brokers within the Enclave. If they decided his actions didn't benefit the Enclave anymore, they could start the mechanisms of Presidential Succession. CL, as Caesar himself proudly tells you if you ask him, was designed from the ground up as a Totalitarian Regime. All power is vested in Caesar alone, his subordinates are nothing without his power behind them. If he becomes a threat to the Regime's existence, there is no legitimate means of removing him, he has to be deposed by assassination and/or a coup.

Richardson has been the elected President for five terms, I don't really think that there was an Enclave ruling over the Oil Rig, if I'm reading you correctly; in-fact in Fallout 2 whether the Enclave was even the Enclave is debatable. It's not that the Enclave, as in the organisation, is the the legitimate successor to the US, the people within it were; I mean Richardson is the elected President of the United States, not the Enclave. The Enclave, as an organisation, really doesn't exist anymore because it is in it's entirety the population of the official United States. We have no idication as too how it worked pre-war but I have my theories, but regardless, the Enclave itself was obviously never an official organisation within the US system, it organised itself and presumably those within it who wielded the most power, had the most contacts etc, were at the top, if there was even a top. What I'm getting at is that the Oil Rig was ruled by the elected officials because it was the US government in charge, there are no private instituations, no media, no industries, who else could compose an Enclave then aside from government personnel? Besides which the point of an Enclave would be moot because of it's small size and the fact that they are all united in a common purpose, there are no strings to pull from behind the scences, no shady government contracts to slip past the public. Whilst I do imagine that the upper echelons of Oil Rig society were above the propaganda and acted logically; they themselves all believed in the same core principles which have been hammered in through the generations. There are probably strong bonds of unity between the people of the Oil Rig and national spirit.

I don't think Richardson was a dictator, if, again, that is what you were suggesting, why would he kill one of his own people, even if he ever needed too (given the nature of the citizens I doubt he would ever have too). Though he does appear to be above the usual propaganda, or at least realised it for what it was, which I believe can be evidenced by the fact that he talks about how a mutant-Enclave collaberation would eventually fail to them being outnumbered, whereas the rest of the people don't have any reason at all just blind hate. I just can't imagine the regimental society allowing devaints, Navarro seems to have a much more liberal system (which I believe may have been intentional, which is why personnel who don't see what the Enclave was doing as ethical leave.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the idea of the Enclave, as a shadowy, puppet-master organisation, won't have survived or even be understood because of the nature of the organisation, society and passage of time. Unless all of the elections were rigged for the 150 years (which given Eden's ability to become President I doubt) and within the Enclave was a heriditary dictatorship which kept all of the past-knowledge alive, I see no reason why this should be the case or why it would even make sense to do so.

You're making my argument for me. I was disagreeing with your post saying you considered the Enclave to be a Totalitarian State...or so close to one that it was one in effect....but the post above pretty much refutes that. The Enclave, unlike CL, is not subject to the will of one all-powerful Leader. The President rules because they were able to get Elected and enjoy the confidence of the Enclave's Electorate. It's the Office of President that is enduring, the man or woman holding it is part of a chain stretching back to Washington, but the Republic can and will survive without the individual officeholder, if something happens to the President a new one is elected or appointed and things go on as before. CL isn't that way....the CL was created to exalt Caesar and to do his Will. Thier only cause is to fulfill his every whim. If Caesar dies, the survival of the Regime depends on the ability of the successor...if they are not as artful the Legion will dissolve into a particularly nasty Civil War as Caesar's lieutenants began to fight over who gets what. If they are, the Regime is re-fashioned to fit the whims of the new Caesar.

Hmm... I've got Nineteen Eighty-Four on the brain so I'm probably just calling wolf I guess. I got kind of insulted by what I thought you were insinuating about the Enclave (hell I think I convinced myself that you were saying it was corrupt; I take the Enclave's legitemacy very seriously) and lept into defensive mode, forgoting what the orginal topic was even about :blush:

Now this has turned into a lore battle, which is fine for those of you that answer my real question already. The question is supposed to be about who hurt You more during in game combat, now we have new people coming in seeing talk of a lore battle vs each other and they are not answering the original question.

Now dont get me wrong I don t mind it evolving into something ( I know I do it, but new people in this thread have to answer the original question first, then take part in the lore vs discussion.

Even I answer to OPs question before I dive into the off topic dicussion or debate.

The Legion by far handed by ass to me more times than the Enclave in F3, hell I went through most of the missions in F3 with a Mesmetron, making all of the Enclave friendly ( seriously, 9/10 the Enclave will be stunned;cos they're evil get it? IRONY!!!! <_< ) and I was fine, just popped a few stims every now and then as the pitifully underpowered energy weapons did jack [censored].

Yea, that's unfortunate. It shouldnt've been like that. You become like a god in FO3. New Vegas is superior as far as character specialization and combat. You cant make your character an expert in all forms of combat and that's how an RPG should be. It also adds replay value because you'll want to build up different types of characters. There isnt just one ultimate character build.

Thats what I m trying to say. Amost every time I ran into Enclave I had to use stims, and they killed alot of my followers. This is not the case with CL. Im not taking any damage from them except the end of the game and when I go kill Ceaser in is tent.

I dont like that. I keep reading about the massive 12-15 dt CL legion has. Do these people not know there are armour piercing bullets in this game. Enclave telsa and hellfire troops took was more bullets than cl ap rounds or not. They even shot back.....
No one remembers controled death claws either.

What I mean is that I went through the whole rigmerole of stunning, putting on a collar, then talking and taking it off again; all of the way through the campaign.