The problem with inviso is basicaly warriors going inviso.. a mage goes invis hes outa power or at least down on it and cant actualy do much of anything.. a warrior manages it and WHACK poof WHACK poof WHACK poof.. should be able to keep inviso up with a nopn mage weapon in hand or a shield in hand or heavy armor on.

As for chameleon id make it wear off 5x faster with light armor then with cloths and 5x faster then that with heavy armor.. and id make it not chameleon your weapon unless again it was a mages weapon.

Id also make chameleon on items boost magical oomph but as a high magical item BUT id make it play holy heck with your aim and make it rather dark while under its effects so it was harder to see where you were going.

then it shouldnt work on undead and possible daedra... and animals would have a completly different brain chemistry than the humanoid characters so the magc should affect them differently Personally i think it would b easier to just make the body translucent but meh :shrug:

The invisibility spell targets the caster. Unless the person you're hiding from has some special magickal ability, it shouldn't matter whether they're a person, an animal, an undead, or a daedra.

Chameleon and invisibility are fine. If it's too easy using those spells, don't use them. Do not stunt the game, otherwise all the best spells which you work hard to obtain which all make the game easier would be pointless.

I want to feel powerful as a Mage, I want to be able to be invisible at the click of my fingers.

I don't think I misunderstand it.
You says invisibility equals an effect for all senses.
I mean invisibility equals an effect for the sense of seeing.
It's not logical for something that is called by name invisibility, and then focuses on the sense of hearing as well.

Just take a look at invisibility in many other games, and movies as well. It can still be perceived by senses; just not the hearing sense.
Doing this does not only make invisibility more challenging and fun (would be quite fun to see NPCs getting worried for hearing you, but not being able to see you, then in panic swinging their weapons in the air), it also makes it logical in concerns of words.
I rest my case.

I say leave it alone because sometimes I like to move around a dungeon and get in and out without a battle. In fact, I'd like to do more things with invisibility. For instance, run through a shop while invisible, knocking over shelves, and going "OoooOOoOOOOOoOOO." Maybe the shopkeeper would get scared out of his mind and think I'm a ghost.

You're making way too big a deal out of semantics. If they want to add another spell -- "sense deprivation" -- or something like that, fine. Not the point.

If its cast on the player then it dosent make sense for ti to be affecting the mind/senses of those around u when all other spells need to be directed onto that character directly.

I'd say that invisibility and chameleon would be a lot less overpowered if enemies could still respond to sounds and other signs of your presence even if you are using invisibilty or 100% chameleon. This would also make more sense than just making you impossible to detect. If you look at the name "invisibility", you should see why, invisibility is the state of being invisible, which means you can't be seen. In other words, if you have invisibility, no one can see you, this doesn't mean no one can detect you through other means. You still make sounds when you're invisible, you just can't be seen. Now, of course, NPCs shouldn't immediately go into combat if they hear you while invisible, rather, they should start to get suspicious, and maybe investigate it, even Oblivion managed to pull off a degree of partial awareness on your enemy's part, it just wouldn't apply once you were invisible. Sometimes while sneaking around, you'd hear NPCs say things like "Whose there?" showing that they thought they heard somthing, but aren't really sure that you're there, they didn't know exactly where you are when they said things like that, but it informed you that you should be careful, or you might get detected. If something like this could be done for using chameleon and invisibility, it could make it a bit less overpowered, without making it useless. Though I think it would also need to be accompanied by AI that responds better to this sort of thing, if NPCs think they hear something, they could go over to investigate, maybe mages could cast detect life, after all, that's probably what players would do if an opponent cast invisibility. Or if they knew you were there but suddenly you vanished due to using invisility or something, instead of just somehow psychically knoing where you are and chasing you to the ends of the earth or just instantly forgetting you were there, they could start throwing attacks in the general direction you were in before for a bit, until they realize it's not doing any good. Aside from the sound of your footsteps, they could also react to things like bumping into objects or walking through water, so when you want to be stealthy, you would want to be careful about that sort of thing.

I'd also say that just like how armor rating is capped in Oblivion (And the cap should remain, assuming Bethesda continues using the current system, as the way it works in Oblivon, your armor reduces damage from all mundane attacks by a certain percentage, for example, an armor rating of 50 means that all attacks are weakened by 50%. Letting your defense go up to 100 would make you completely invulnerable to all physical attacks.) the maximum level of chameleon should be capped at a certain number, high enough to make your chameleon give a significant benefit, but not to the point where NPCs won't know you're there if you're in a brightly lit room, wearing a full set of Daedric armor, standing a meter in front of them and jumping up and down. Alternately, they could still allow chameleon to reach 100, but change the way the calculation works somewhat so that even at 100, your chameleon still doesn't actually make you impossible to see, just as how 100 sneak still doesn't make you impossible to detect. Part of my problem with chameleon is that not only does 100% chameleon make sneak obsolete, it even makes invisibility obsolete. The way invisibility is designed, it goes away as soon as you interact with any object, where as chameleon does not, this makes sense as invisibility has the advantage of making you completely invisible whereas chameleon makes you partially invisible, thus, in heory, both spells have their value. The problem is that once you've managed to get 100% chameleon through enchantments, you can become completely invisible, just like invisiblity, AND stay invisible all the time. I should not need to explain why this is not good game balance. So I'd say we need a way to make both chameleon and invisibilty worth using, instead of making the latter just a weaker version of the former once you can get 100%.

Alternately, if Bethesda doesn't want to put a hard limit on chameleon, they could make it so that once the effect gets over a certain point, the magicka cost or enchantment point cost of increasing the strength of your chameleon by 1 point would increase periodically as the effect got stronger. This way, in theory you can still get 100% chameleon, but in practice, it's difficult, if feasible at all.



No, I'd say that making it so that you can be completely impossible to detect to your enemies, no matter what you do, is overpowered, whether it's a single player game or not. And in any case, if you're going to say the developers shouldn't at least try to make a single player game balanced, then you might as well just put an item in the game that enables god mode as soon as you put it on. As much as I like options, intentionally including the option to completely remove any challenge from the game as an ability available as part of normal gameplay (Using the console doesn't count as that's not normal gameplay.) is usually a bad idea.



If they were supposed to effect ALL senses, then why would the spell be called invisibility, you know, the state of being unable to be seen? Also, in case you didn't notice, illusion also includes the light spell, which, as it's name implies, generates a magical light around you, or your target, or are you going to tell me that it's not actually generating light but just manipulating the senses so that you think there's light? And if your going to say that because it's illusion magic, then it must involve decieving the senses, then by the same logic, shouldn't fortify attribute spells or magical resistences not be restoration either? These spells don't restore you to a healthy state or anything, they enhance your physical or mental attributes, if anything, by that kind of logic, they should be alteration because they're altering some aspect of your mental or physical abilities. Ultimately, the magic schools are all pretty loose, at best. And in any case, games sometimes need to make gameplay mechanics differ from lore and story for the sake of keeping the game fun and balanced. Even if invisiblity, contrary to what its name would suggest, actually makes you not register on ANY sense, it can still be fairly unbalancing. Though the real problem I'd say is chameleon, because invisibility wears off when you do anything, but chameleon remains until the duration of the spell ends, and when the spell effect is at 100 percent, this makes you effectively invincible, as long as you keep sneaking.



And when did anyone say anything about not liking a magical world? This is a topic about how to make certain spells balanced better, not suggesting the removal of magic. It doesn't even say anything about removal of choices, it's just a discussion about how to make certain choices, namely. using chameleon or invisibility, less unbalancing. Like I've said, if you're going to use giving the player more options as an excuse to allow the possibility of unbalancing the game to remain, then you might as well just add a suit of armor that activates god mode as soon as you put it on. After all, giving you the choice to utterly remove any trace of challenge from the game would give you more choices.

And I keep pointing out that there is no such thing as overpowered in a single player game:/

100% chameleon is a wonderful effect for experimenting, for giving the game more play hours in wich you do not simply act linear but discover and tweak and fool around. If you dont like it, dont use it.

Do not petition to remove it because of falsely naming it inbalanced.

Shield was capped because armor was capped, it's the same stat and they stack. The cap is 85, so no point in allowing the players to make a spell that goes higher than that.



As for the rest of the thread, going by the OP's logic they should remove daggers, short swords, claymore, axes, maul, etc. Why do we need more way of killing people, the long blade work just fine by itself.

Look, if you don't like the "inpercievability" spell, don't use it. But don't take away my ability to roleplay my character.

"Don't like it, don't use it" is the worst argument ever... it's invalid. I can make a long list why it is, but I doubt the people that use this argument would care.

In any case, I think invisibility, because of logic and its name and nature, should only be done in Skyrim so that you can't see the enemy, but hear the enemy. This has nothing to do with your ability to roleplay your character, it can still be done as before, read below. It has more something to do with basic logic, which should exist everywhere, YES even in an RPG.
In addition, there should be a new spell added that causes you to be unheard. Similar to invisibility's nature, but instead only affecting the hearing.

Then, if you want to be completely unperceivable (unseen and unheard), you can use both of these spells. Tada, problem solved, and "logic" preserved!
Everyone happy , even those that wanna roam around being competely undetected, and even those that want invisibility to be a bit more logical by its name and nature and to make it a bit harder to use it seperately.

Clearly we need the sense of SMELL in the games. We have sound and sight and physical contact. What about smell? Could be represented visually (synesthesia ftw!).

You can be stealthy and invisible all you want. But if you are upwind and stink to high heaven, everyone will know you are there.


Anyway...

Chameleon should only work if you walk, and should be broken if you start running, enter bright light, start attacking. Works better in shadows, works better if you stay still or move slowly. Like how it was done in Bioshock.

Invisibility should be broken by running (loud footsteps!) and by activating objects or casting a spell/swinging a weapon.

Basically, you want Cham and Invis to be spell-alternatives to stealth, like how the Unlock spell is the alternative to the lockpick skill.

However, I think the spells should not be as powerful as having 100 skill ranks in Stealth/Lockpick skills.

Okay, here's my argument.

1. In order for the invisibility (inpercievability) spell to "break the game," you have to use it.
2. You don't have to use the invisibility (inpercievability) spell.
3. Therefore, the presence of the spell in the game does not by itself break the game. (By modus tollens on premises 1 and 2)
4. What many people like about TES is the ability to roleplay.
5. Removing the invisibility (inpercievability) spell would undermine the ability to roleplay a certain character.
6. Therefore, removing the invisibility (inpercievability) spell would undermine what many people like aobut TES (By modus tollens on premises 4 and 5).

Don't wave logic at me.



This is why I used the term "inpercievability" spell instead of "invisibility" in my post.

Having skills/spells whatever much more powerful/useful than others in a SP game is a bad thing. It does break balance, meaning that you have to set limitations on your roleplaying to avoid being overpowered. And that detracts from the immersion, thus the roleplay. Roleplaying a god is just not fun. It's all about choices/consequences affecting your character build, and that build having strengths AND weaknesses

ps : you may want to take a look at ROM mod. It's absolutely great and follows this philosophy

I don't believe chameleon or invisibility were overpowered in Oblivion except in a couple of circumstances. For one you had to be at least a journeyman to have access to the effect, the stone things notwithstanding. At journeyman you're supposed to start feeling a little uber in your abilities. However the custom 3 second invisibility spell was probably a little broken, but it's just one of many exploits the player can choose to use.

I would actually recommend combining invisibility and chameleon into one spell effect. Here's how it would work. At a low level, the effect would fizzle out whenever you performed an action just like invisibility plus it would fizzle out if you ran for more than a couple of seconds. But as the effect becomes more powerful you could start picking up low weight items and run for longer periods of time. At the highest level you could pick up heavy items and run indefinitely, plus you could perform some combat actions. It would be more powerful than chameleon but there would still be a chance you could be spotted.

LMAO! Did somebody put a gun to your head and force you to use Chameleon/Invisibility against your will?

If they decide to change the rules for sake of balance, it's up to them. You have to abide to those rules, whatever they may be. That does *not* prevent roleplaying. A GM is highly aware of power players and adapts style (and to a lesser degree, rules) as he see fit to meet the players. A static game with a fixed set of rules cannot, so the rules themselves needs to be less exploitative.

Yeah, the invisibility quest would be *really* cool if we couldn't talk to the NPCs All I'm saying is that invisibility should remove you from the visual light. If some creatures can see into the infra red, it should lower your effect from being invisible. If they can smell you, it should at least just scare them away, unless for NPCs who can use detect life against you. Daedra should probably have "aura vision", sort of like a builtin detect life constant effect. Given these, how does that limit anyone "playing their character"? Adding spells to silence your own movement or disguise your smell adds to the complexity, sure. Which is exactly the opposite of dumbing it down.

Agree with Lemunde. Fizzles and fumbles could add so much to the game. Add in variable times and effects based on skills, and we have a winner (imho)

Don't want to role-play a god, don't make one. You wan weakness, role-play them.

That's what the game is about: choices to role-play what you want. If you decided to make an overpowered spell you are the one to blame not the game. You made it and decided to use it, the game didn't force you...

No.

But I'm worried about the effect that an easy to obtain, but overpowered effect, like a total invisibility of a few seconds, might have on the decisions that level designers might take.

For instance, if anybody could get invisible and go into higher level areas and get those higher level items at lower levels, then designers might decide to remove those items from the places.

But if there is no such an easy options, then those designers might decide to put some great items in hand placed areas, and let creative players find a way to get the, without the risk of super easy ways because of overpowered invisibility effects.

One of the characters I roleplay isn't a very good warrior in the traditional sense: he's not very strong, and in standard face to face combat most townsfolk would be a challenge for him. He's not an extraordinary mage, either: he doesn't use destruction or conjuration magic, at all. But he's an adept illusionist, and he takes advantage of that to be a fairly formidable force. He's incredibly fun to play. When the only danger is a solitary enemy, he has the deadly efficiency of an assassin; but when there's a group of enemies (like when storming an Oblivion Tower), he has to carefully strategize his assault or risk fighting for his life.

Is he a game breaking god? Does he unbalance the game? No, because I don't play him that way.

Sigh.
I can make a short list why this is wrong.

First, an argument is defined that you state a point (that is often controversial), and then support that point with other points people accept.
The only way of an argument to take any effect, is if people accept all the premises.

Premise A: You don't like it.
Premise B: You don't use it.
Conclusion: If you don't like it, you don't use it.

This is modus tollens. Basic argumentation. I accept premise A, I don't like it.
I don't accept your point of premise B, I do use it. Why is this invalid? Because there are other options and other ways of using invisibility than one way. In this thread there have been multiple examples. My point has been that invisibility should only affect the sense of seeing, and not as well hearing. Other points have been the opposite. Therefore, the argument "If you don't like it, don't use it" is invalid.

Ok? So you don't want to use chameleon/invisibility because it is to easy and afraid the designers will remove higher level item because it is to easy to obtain them. Well, won't the higher level items at low character level also make the game easier?

I understand your concern, chameleon/invisibility do make it easy, but the more options we have the better rpg experience.

Well, if those overpowered spells are not available, getting those higher level items in lower levels are almost impossible, so there is no need to worry about your point.

But, if somebody is clever enough to get the places that have those higher level items at lower levels without getting killed, and take those and return alive, then the higher level item is a prize rightfully gained and results in immense sense of satisfaction.

But if anybody could get those prizes with casting an invisibility spell a few times, then there is no sense of satisfaction in getting those items, and this fact might even affect the designers' decision and remove those high level prizes from the scenes altogether.

That is my concern.