1. In order for ADDING GUNS spell to "break the game," you have to use it.
2. You don't have to use the GUNS.
3. Therefore, the presence of GUNS the game does not by itself break the game. (By modus tollens on premises 1 and 2)
4. What many people like about TES is the ability to roleplay.
5. ADDING GUNS would NOT undermine the ability to roleplay a certain character.
6. Therefore, ADDING GUNS would NOT undermine what many people like aobut TES (By modus tollens on premises 4 and 5).


:chaos:

Okay, I wasn't ever arguing about whether invisibility should affect just vision or the other senses as well. That's why I used the term "inpercievability" spell. If you want invisibility to just effect the sense of sight, fine. I have absolutely no problem with that. But then I want a different spell, "inpercievability," which effects all the senses.

My argument had nothing to do with whether invisbility/inpercievability should effect all the senses or just one. My argument was a counter to the argument that the invisibility/inpercievability spell is overpowered. I'm saying invisbility/impercievability does not make the game unbalanced because you don't have to use it.

This is a valid argument. Adding guns does not inherently "break the game" (i.e., it doesn't ruin gameplay mechanics and doesn't automatically make the player overly powerful).

Adding guns is bad for a different reason: it doesn't fit with the magic/fantasy based world of TES.

:) and nerfing invisibility adds to the challenge and depth of the game by challenging the player to problem solve in different ways... it adds to the 'realism' within the games set continuality by giving the computer controlled players better awareness, and to behave more 'human' like..... arguments can be made both ways.

@Sphagne #50:
Which is basically the reason I suggest capping skills, at least for self training (if they are numerous enough to warrant it, and fall back on less effective stats if you don't have the skill). I think the "endless reload scenario" is less likely than exploiting the "weaknesses built into the game", if dice rolls for success is also used. In my 56 skill (6 major master, 12 minor expert, 12 misc journeyman, and 26 hidden "off limits to train in") 5 specialization (Combat, Nature, Stealth, Social, Magic) system, the idea is that you only really loose the perks, which helps define your character also in the late game. For less skillful skills, your stats gradually takes over and allows you a fair chance to "do anything", except enjoying the perks. So in the mid game, as a non spellcaster, there may be no way I can train the skill needed to cast a certain spell without it fizzle on me. As my levels increase, this chance is raised since my stats are used instead of skill, and I may now have a chance. I'll still fizzle more than a spell caster, but it's not completely out of reach either, if you give it time.

Some games have a short list of skills that apply to everyone, like we're currently having in TES games. Like:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/59/RQ3-sheet.jpg

Others, like i.e. Rolemaster, have a shiload of skills that you can choose from (or assigned via profession).
This is the route I'd like to see, as more skills to train gives me more option to shape my character. But...
At the same time, the end game isn't completely limited. Just enough to warrant a new character doing something else.
Naturally we can't have thousands of skills without human interaction, but enough of this dumbing down!

@Spydrebyte, above:
Indeed. But I do think guns *would* break the game. If I'm a sword user, swords vs guns is a pretty rotten deal. So I'm now *forced* to use guns to face foes with guns. "No, for player only"? That wouldn't be very fair...

A few points that I would like to make:
1. Enchanting a super suit is an end-game affair. You can already destroy everything you come across. In Oblivion you can't even make one before a certain level because of that horrible leveled enemy system.
2. Master Illusionists deserve to be able to easily make themselves invisible and use chameleon. They're masters, right?

I had a blast with full chameleon enchanted armor. It was a goal I had to make the armor set, and I had fun questing for the sigil stones to get it. I had fun shooting my foes with arrows and watching them stumble around, unable to detect me at all. It was a great experience.

After that, I decided it was too easy and became bored. I then restricted myself and limited my use of items with the chameleon effect.

It was fun, I explored it, and then limited my use of it.

It's still available if I get a wild hair and want to experience "super godlike stealth" again.

I have no gripes about it.

If only I knew what "nerfing" meant.

Look, you can make the game as challenging or unchallenging you want depending on how you play the game. In an earlier post I described how I RP with invisibility, and the game is still challenging for me. I could make the game unchallenging without invisibility.

My worry is that removing the invisibility spell would remove one way to solve problems. When I RP that character, I use invisibility to make up for other weaknesses I intentionally give him.

I play TES games to roleplay. If I want a challenge I read Kant.

sphagne: I understand the concern, but the inclusion of invisibility in Morrowind and Oblivion didn't seem to have any noticable impact on how the devs made the game otherwise, so I don't think there's any reason to be worried about that.

Ridiculous. A game is made up of rules. If the rules in a game fail to create the experience that was intended, then the rules - and therefore the game - is a failure. If you want to "roleplay" some kind of permanently imperceivable demi-god play something else. TES is about freedom but it was never about waltzing through 50% of the game content untouchable - the problem was a mere oversight. And if it really, really irritates you, you could always mod a couple of values and voila.

P.S. drop the latin. You're not convincing anyone.

I only dropped "modus tollens" because I was accused of making an invalid argument. That's fairly elementary logic anyways.

About the "dem-god" thing. I never said I wanted to roleplay as a demigod. In an http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1154847-chameleon-and-invisibility/page__view__findpost__p__16903922I described the way I RP with invisibility. I don't use invisibility to make my character a demi-god.

You don't but what about everyone else? Players should be able to expect that the game has a complete, robust rule set that dictates the gameplay experience, however wide the gameplay experience can be. Then you tell me that full-on invisibility, which you have conceded to be overpowered, should NOT be used in this way or that way, but in a specific way that facilitates the way YOU RP a specific character? Where do I draw the line? Why bother balancing anything at all? Who's making the game here? The player or the game?

Is it really so much to ask for a balanced game?

Some people like to optimize their characters and still be challenged.

It's nice to not have to gimp yourself from playing a certain way to have fun.

I have no problem at all if someone wants to make an overpowered character. Their choice does not impact my gameplay experience in the least.

I never said the invisibility spell was overpowered. I will concede that it can be used to make an overpowered character, but that doesn't make it inherently overpowered.

"Whose making the game here? The player or game?" Okay, this is just my point. In TES games, it is the player who creates his/her gameplay experience by how he/she chooses to play the game. The game is as balanced or unbalanced as you choose to make it. That's the point. If you want the game to be challenging, you can play so that it's challening. If you want to squash every enemy like an ant, you can play that way.

The Mango 55: I see your point, but I don't think the presence or absense of a single spell is really what makes the difference here. Optimizing a character, whether his/her focus is fighting, magic, or stealth is going to make the game easier in that area. I understand wanting the game to be challening even when you've got a high level character, but that's more an issue of leveling than a single spell.

I don't really care just make it not like previous elder scrolls tittles where if you have invisibility enchantments over 100% your basically removed from the game they need to fix that.

Want to role-play a god? hit the console key and type 'tgm'

Don't force us who want to have a fun and challenging gameplay experience to not use certain spells.

All these arguments could be solved in the chameleon effect was not by percentage and invisibility was not like 100% chameleon until an action, but something like this:

The chameleon was like camouflage power, and invisibility was like a higher camouflage power, until an action, but those powers could be countered by sight power and keenness of the opposition.

Those power could be added to sneak power, the coloring of worn gear, and environmental effects like ambient light and fog, and so on...

Something like this:

Sneaker:
Sneak skill + Camouflage spells + Worn gear + Environmental effects + Action

Opposition:
Keenness + Blindness or Detect spells + Alarm state + Line of Sight

Environmental effect is the ambient light of the point where the stalker resides, and the fog effect and the like.

The Alarm state can be like this:

• Unconscious: Can not detect anything. :sleep2:
  
• Distracted: Attention caught by something else. :violin:
  
• Unaware: Idle, whistling, mumbling and the like... :whistling:
  
• Alarm level 1: Heard a sound, and looks toward the direction. :shifty:
  
• Alarm level 2: Saw a something and comes looking for it. :stare:
  
• Alarm level 3: Find something bad like a corpse and start actively searching. oo:
  
• Alarm level 4: Found the target but lost it and looking for it. :flame:
  
• Alarm level 5: Actively pursuing/atacking the target. :gun:
  
• Alarm level ?: Fleeing from the target. :bolt:

And each alarm state affects the sight power or keenness of the pursuer, so at first it would be easier to avoid them, but if you knock something down and make a noise, it would become harder to avoid them.

This way, you could cast a chameleon spell and pass the regular foes, but those higher level guards and bosses, should be harder to avoid, because they had keener senses, and thus obtaining a high level item, at high level area, that would have higher level foes, would require better spells and more advanced sneak skills, and that would mean higher level player, which would prevent the problem that was my concern.

I.e. using an easy to gain invisibility spell and getting higher level items in higher level areas easily.

I just don't understand the argument, "It is not over powered, because it is a single-player game". It simply IS over powered compared to the skills it over powers, such as chameleon and invisibility takes away the need of the Sneak skill, alteration takes away security etc, so they are over powered compared to those, because you can do things faster and safer with spells.

The possibility of going ENCHANTED into chameleon 100% without any of the creatures/characters in the world being able to hear you/see you/hurt you, is just the wrong way of doing the chameleon spell. Same for the 3 second invisibility combo that can be made when gaining acces to the mages guild arcane university, nothing can stop you, and you can always get away if you do want to start a fight and you don't even have to have illusion 50, simply chosing the shadow birthsign in the beginning lets you do this spell, and I'm sure it doesn't come even close to 15 Magicka per spell.

What I'm saying is that mages should be able to do alot of things, but not better than the real skill can do it. A mage character can do everything any other character can do, and better. Some say this is not over powered, because it is a single-player game, but shouldn't the game try and reward the players equally no matter what choices they make, and not reward the mages with diamond jewelry, while giving the other characters a wooden spoon?

The possibilities chameleon and invisibility gives players in Oblivion is to make immortal characters at level 1. The argument, "don't do it because it is optional" seems to be a bit odd, because the existance of the opportunity is enough to make it over powered. Don't reward the hard working, real RPGers with a hard time to get forward, while giving cheapies the possibility to become unkillable.




Edit: Read Selbeth_the_Winged_Ones:s reply on page two of this thread, it is pure golden diamonds!


Edit Edit: Sphagne has a very reasonable point too, but all arguments cannot be solved by that, such as "Keep it as it is, it's not over powered", but that is pure gold you've got there at page 1 and now, again on page 4 as some seem not to pay attention to your long suggestions, that are pretty much what I'm thinking is atleast what should be done to Chameleon and Invisibility to make it more balanced.

Im saying its not overpowered because this is elder scrolls.

Im very much used to have a great amount of control over my gameplay, and the mechanics of the game.

I use 100% chameleon a lot, for experimentation and tweaking and it is elements such as these wich make the game playable again and again, instead of typical modern games that I will never touch again after playing them twice.

It can also not be overpowered because its a single player game, this is the simplest of logic.

As I have said a few times, if you want a linear game in wich you narrowly follow a pre-set path made by the developer, impossible to venture outside because of pre-set limitations, by Azura, go play Fable.

Do Not Petition to make elder scrolls as dumbed down and stunted as 90% of the other games on the market.

I only used the Chameleon 100% enchanted on one on my characters once to realize it was completely over powered and made the sneak skill useless, and infact all skills where useless after that. Every single skill was useless after 100% chameleon. And you say that is not at all un-balanced or over powered?

So you mean the only reason you play Elder scrolls games more that twice is because you can become 100% chameleon? Yeah well, I'm not sure your motive is exactly what I expect a fan of TES games to say.

Over powered in a single player game is very much possible, especially as there are multiple skills and tactics to be chosen from. Do you really say it is not over powered to face roll everything with a single spell effect, when not even all other effects and skills combined can come close to that face rollness? Yes.. logic indeed..

How would making Chameleon and Invisibility spells more realistic and balanced possibly make Skyrim as linear as a shooter games single player mode?

Big ?

Invisibility is broken and they need to fix it either you have to be a master in illusion or just get rid of it completely. Chameleon can be fixed by not making you completely invisibile with 100% Chameleon.

It cannot break the game because it is a single player game and nothing forces you to use it.

It is useful for experimenting with AI and generally having fun.

I know it is really hard to understand if you dont feel the same, but these kind of things are Why the elder scrolls are so great. You can make it as difficult as you want by turning the slider all the way up and simply not using these magicks.

It is a great sadness to me that people actually want the elder scrolls to be as restrictive, linear and limited as any other title, want a game in wich your ability to have control of the game is non-existent, and really truly believe that just the things that make the games unique is somehow a flaw.

I am frustrated that there seems to be an understanding barrier here. Ive explained, Ive shouted and Ive debated, but the point does not come across. I think I will have to accept that some people are handicapped by their experiences of other games and therefore conclude that anything that lets you act outside of the box is a design flaw.

For the last time, Im going to direct those people to those other games they love so much and ask them to leave TES alone.

Im not going to post anymore here as its simply an effort in frustration and leaves me feeling drained and wanting to bang my head against the desk in utter malaise.

Bah.

It's about common sense, even restrictions and limitations are about common sense. If they messed up and by mistake added a few additional zeroes to an area spell, some would still think that was a good idea, even if they had a nuke in their spell arsenal. If some of us complain or suggest removal, some of you would still throw the "no way, it's all about freedom" card. If the game had proper counters against everything, then I wouldn't mind. But it doesn't. I love the world being populated by magic, but I don't want it to be dominated by it. In order to counter for all the ridiculousness the player can do, it would have to. That's when the equation of "freedom" fails.

This argument isn't going anywhere, so I'll just say one thing and then I'm out.

You can become a demi-god in Morrowind and Oblivion without using invisibility or chameleon. It is incredibly easy to do it. Have the self-control not to and stop complaining.

You can play your game any way you like to. Please let me play mine.

I don't really care if chameleon/invisibility get changed. Players will just find ways around it in order to continue bypassing the 'challenge' and making things 'too easy' for themselves.