Chameleon and Invisibility are Illusion magic spells that just seem way too overpowerful in Oblivion. Chameleon at 100% could be enchanted to your gear, making you invincible. Invisibility could be doen in a three second spell, that would keep anyone invisible for ever, as it took so little magic points. Obviousy, it was because the enemies could not hear you, even though the guide told you so.

So my fellow forumers, time to put these spells into their right place for Skyrim don't you think?

Invisibility is to be thought of as chameleon 100%, but it still would break if you activate/attack things.

The way you see your own character in chameleon in Skyrim should be in the same way as you saw yourself in Morrowind, it hid your body up to the % amount of the spell, not like in Oblivion, where you became an ethereal figure already at 3% chameleon.
As chameleon says, it makes you blend into your surroundings, up to 100%. So how much should this affect stealth of your character? If you are not sneaking at all, should it still have some effect, maybe at a longer distance from the enemy?
The enchantability of Chameleon was perhaps the most stupid thing I can come up with in Oblivion. You were able to become a god with 5 pieces of grand soul gems and a little bit of skill in illusion. No thank you to that for Skyrim if you ask me.
The reason both Chameleon and Invisibility are so Over powered, chameleon at 100%, is that the enemies do not hear you, not matter what. Making enemies notice your footsteps, unless you are sneaking, and reacting if they hear you in smart ways could lessen these spells power. Example:
You are invisible in a fort with marauders, not sneaking. You run all you can right through all the marauders. In Oblivion, nothing happens. But what I would like to see is one of the following, or all randomly or just something else than nothing:
1) they wake up, grab their weapons, start talking to each other if the other heard something, preparing for an attack, while one or two of them go on to warn the other marauders in the fort.
2) start swinging their weapons at the last known location, or where they heard the sound, systematically going through the whole place, claymores swinging.

Now to the cost of the spell, and the possibility to do a 3 second invisibility spell.
Invisibility spells cost way too little, as you can with an average will power keep you invisible for eternity. More cost to the spells would also make them less over powered, maybe even more balanced compared to other spells. And what about a minimal amount that you have to cast when making own spells? This is something I want for all spells in fact. So invisibility 10 seconds would be the real minimal effect possible when doing spells, preventing eternal invisibility for those who have lower skill and will power.

Share your thoughts of Chameleon at any % and Invisibility in general, in combat when using stealth, when not using stealth and so on.

I kind of agree with you. Chameleon did feel overpowered, but only once you reach chameleon over 50%. Less than 50% is felt more like a magical boost to sneak rather than a sneak in its own right.
I think lower chameleons, 20% 30%, should be easy enough.

I don’t agree with you about invisibility though. Invisibility stops once you do anything. It’s more like a "get through a room for free" spell, which never felt overpowered to me. I guess it could take a little longer to cast it though.

It was overpowered, you could cast it again any time you liked, and Wham!, you are invisible again and untouchable.

• Get invisible.
  
• Go in a high level area.
  
• Get the high level item.
  
• Get invisible again.
  
• Return.

= Over-Powered-TM.

Put a cap on chameleon, 50% should do. Also if your standing still your almost invisible, but when your moving your outline becomes more apparent. (kinda like predators)


^agreed^
Also on the topic of stealth magics I think you should be able to transform into a mouse, that would be boss.

It needs to be impossible to regnerate the magicka used for an invisibility spell before the spell runs out. Otherwise its possible to be permanently invisible.

I think some of it is too powerful, but really I just want some enemies to be able to counteract you using those tactics. 100% in those spells should just be very hard to get.

I would rather want enemies that acknowledges that they are fighting someone invincible and attack based on sound, stab the air, using there sword as a blind stick, or use detect creature spells/scrolls.

Maybe chameleon should be something which is weakened by movement.

I really don't want the effectiveness of the spell to be based on sneak, just the sound that I make while moving.

If you have a high illusion skill, then the invisibility and chameleon spells override the need to build your sneak skill (you can sneak for free, basically). Just as well, if you have a high enough alteration skill, then the unlock spells override the need to build your security skill. Destruction, your weapons skills (excepting magicka resistant baddies).

See what I'm getting at?

Here's the thing. No spell in a TES game is overpowered, because you don't have to use it. If you'd rather sneak the old fashioned way, you go for it.

It's all about the kind of character you want to roleplay. Having a spell like invisibility lets you RP a certain kind of character. For another example, I was irked that Mark and Recall were removed from Oblivion. Yes, I know you can fast travel instead of using Mark and Recall (just like you can use sneak instead of invisibility), but that was one more aspect of my character I couldn't roleplay in the game.

Exactly.

I don't think Invisible is overpowering. Also I don't use them in battle only to get away from something or travel from town to town.

Stealth is quite tricky as it requires pretty advanced AI. This was pretty apparent in Oblivion when after an enemy saw you pretty much the only way to lose them without killing them was an invisibility spell or running away and leaving them five miles behind you. The AI's detection of the player character was pretty weird and seemingly based on being able to see the player, primary detection could be made based on sound but couldn't be maintained if the player wasn't detectable visually. The AI has to be improved a lot if what is proposed here is to work but one can always hope.
The visual effect for chameleon was also quite odd. I think it might have been done by turning the character model invisible and adding a refractive layer onto it, a neater solution might be a differing transparency on the textures of the character model and detection would be based on sort of a contrast to the environment. Of course this opens a whole new can of worms but the old effect could simply have been based on limitations of the gamebryo engine.
The cost of these spells is also kinda stupid but I think it was because Bethesda wanted players to get their hands on some useful illusion spells early on in the game.
By the way if levitation returns imagine this situation. Player casts levitate for say 30s on self and then casts invisibility for 30s on self, float across room undetected, land and cast invisibility again or run into a dark corner. How does that sound? Allows to bypass quite a lot of rooms and could let someone up close to backstabbing range without needing a terribly high sneak skill. Invisibility is only broken if you use an item, attack or cast a spell, it doesn't affect and isn't affected by pre existing spell effects. Ff course this could be solved by levitation having to be constantly cast to fly.

Again this kind of nonsense?

Things cannot be overpowered in a single player game. You can make it as difficult on yourself as you want.
The fact that elder scrolls is still playable after a playthrough or three is a direct result of how much control you have over the gameworld, such as 100% chameleon. It helps you try different and nifty things.

If you dont like it, become a warrior and dont use it.

Do not petition to stunt the gameplay of the wonderful world of elder scrolls because you set arbitrary limits on yourself.

That's a good point, my character had 100 spell absorption and damage reflect. Was I overpowered? Sure, but only because I choose to be. When ever I wanted to play "legit" I just took my gear off.

I agree that sound should play a role in stealth. Enemies should be able to hear you (this would play into the AI enhancements I've always wanted for stealth - see sig).

That said, I don't believe in otherwise powering down the spells in any way. Abilities like chameleon, levitation, etc., that can potentially be "game breaking" are just fine.

You have to really *want* to abuse them in order to get that result, and in a single player game such as this, player freedom is king. If I want to craft an overpowered suit of armor with crazy enchantments, or simply create an overpowered spell that regenerates the magica required to cast it with every use, that's OK. A TES game that places strict limits on your character's potential would be less, not more, than its predecessors.

I guess the weird thing that has to be fixed is that only the shield effect had a barrier below 100. The reasoning for the shield effect barrier is that without it, the game would get too easy, but the same goes for lots of other effects. For example, if the total chameleon effect you can get is capped at 70, it's a useful effect without the possibility of activating god mode. The same goes for resist magic, reflect damage and reflect magic.

Also simple combat AI would help the problem somewhat. For example, if a mage hears something, but doesnt see it, he/she casts a detect life spell to try and find you. Maybe even try a dispel on target to make you visible again. This would require characters to have both decent sneak skill and an illusion spell/effect instead of just one of the two.

With Mana regen, at least the super simplistic way it's done now, I'd say all spells are sort of overpowered. But even for this system, I think a spell becomes overpowered, or if you prefer, unbalanced, when there no longer is a cost.

Invisibility I don't have much of a problem with. But maybe the cost is too low.
Chameleon should work only against NPCs. Should work a lot less (maybe not even at all) against creatures. Humanoids operate excessively based on visuals, whereas creatures base a lot on hearing, smelling, and maybe seeing your aura (detect life kinda sorta).
Similarly, sneak should also only work against NPCs, with something new called stalk to only work against creatures. Different skill, different effects, maybe harder to use or have side effects like using camouflage lowers your appearance so people won't talk to you etc. I want to be a hunter stalking prey, but I don't think that should make me a master sneak against NPCs.

Like I also saw in another thread, I support a better separation between what magic schools can do, and what others can do. Like unique scrolls or enchantments or alchemy effects. If all bars (Health, Mana, Fatigue) was split into three (like in UFO games), we could have:
* Temporary damages that regenerates automatically, i.e. when a spell effect wears off or a single blow from a hammer that takes your breath away.
* Normal damages that you need to sleep and/or eat to recover from. Lowers constantly for health, and doesn't regenerate for mana. Magic or potions can only restore you back to current maximum.
* Critical damages that you cannot even sleep away. Like sicknesses, with mental and physical effects. Cure the mental ones at churches like now. But physical effects have to be treated with medicine (not magic or potions). Your fatigue can never be more than your health.

Edit: A highly desired side effect from this "need to sleep" is that it helps time pass more quickly. This is important since the game world is so much smaller than what the real world would be, so you can't pass time a natural way from travel alone.

I don't want to see them gone, but maybe looked more into. I don't think magic should be allowed to "do everything". Everything should have its uses AND limitations. Keep in mind that a hard coded game like this cannot counter bad unwanted side effects on the fly like a GM would when he wants to balance things out.

Certain creatures should be immune to the invisibility such as daedra, ghosts and animals with a keen sense of smell. I never use the spell so if they already are just ignore me

Also, let the npc's use the detect life spell if they think theres someone invisible.

Chameleon definitely needs a huge overhaul. Too overpowered, I agree. Especially, people should still be able to hear you. They may not see you... but hear you, and therefore somewhat know where you are. They could then swing their weapons in the air where they last heard you...

Concerning invisibility I think Bethesda should do this:
- Make it a very rare spell to get.
- Make it a more difficult spell to use by increasing its magicka use
- People should still be able to hear you. They may not see you... but hear you, and therefore somewhat know where you are. They could then swing their weapons in the air where they last heard you...

This causes sneaking to still be important, even though you have chameleon or invisibility.

Creatures should not be able to detect you under invisibility or chameleon, and neither should NPC's

Sound, and smell, do not matter.

Remember, these are illusion effects, not alteration. You do not actually become invisible, you manipulate the senses of those around you so they do not register you.
This is why (on Morrowind) you couldnt become invisible when someone was watching you, its perfectly logical that would break the illusion.

There should be no cap on reflect, absorb, chameleon and they should not be super rare or magicka intensive.

If you dont like a magical world, please go play a shooter, but dont ask for elder scrolls to be dumbed down into a linear game where I have no choices.

Okay, a couple of people have said the spell cost for invisibility was too low.

Um, the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:List_of_Spells_by_Effect#Invisibility spell in Oblivion was a journeyman level spell (which means you had to have a level 50 illusion skill to cast it), and it cost 112 magicka points. So in order to use invisibility at all you have to have built your illusion skill significantly already. Unlike, say, a fireball which you get just by starting the game.

What about the fact that invisibility only affect your sense of seeing?
Invisible means not being able to be seen. You need to seperate seeing from hearing. Even an RPG should have some sense of logic.

A logical and easy way around this is to simply add a new spell in Skyrim that allows other not to be able to hear you. In short, it makes you unhearable. They could call it... Quiet, or Silent Feet, Inaudiable or something like that.

Probably people who power level and get 100 illusion skill at level 8. But then it would be weird that they're complaining about becoming overpowered. I agree with you that the cost of invisibility was fine in oblivion.

I appreciate the time you put inot your post, thanks :thumbsup: However, I don't think it needs fixing :shrug:

This kind of breaks down into OB's anyone can do anything pilosophy and how one plays their character; should theives be expert spell casters? Should they be allowed to buy powerful magic items? Should magic users be allowed to be just as sneaky as a thief?

I played a stealth=based character and only used invis to escape enemies; chameleon only once in a while due to high stealth. The same was true in MW. But there's an exception. When walking long sitances, I would don a suit of near 100% chameleon so I could ignore monsters when I was munching land or heading to a mission in the woods. Or in a hurry. Here it's a godsend to ovoid annoyance.

Finally, why is it that wen there's the possibility of someone using something to the max which can destroy the game (if someone else missuses it) then it's "broken"?

Was it overpowered, yeah. It was sure helluv alot of fun to use too. Leave it be and let people decide on whether to use it or not.

No Hlvr, you misunderstand the nature of illusion.

Invisibility is an effect that prevents senses from registering you. They still see and hear you, but its like youre in a blind spot in their mind.

Illusion affects the the way things are perceived, not what things are.

It is perfectly logical for a spell that alters others perception to the effect of filtering you out of their world would not only affect the eyesight, but also ears and nose.
After all, it is the brain that tells us what we sense, NOT our senses, wich can be fooled rather easily as anyone on our real life world who's ever done a magic trick knows.