Okay so I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that "The Champion of Cyrodill" and possibly the new Sheogorath were not the same people. as in your CoC character was not the same as the one that went into the shivering isles. i was wondering if anyone else has heard that ? or if any of you know that they are the same person?

(also that's how I RP it. with two different characters)

That's only your choice. My character is all... Champion of Cyrodiil, Archmage, lead of the Fighters Guild, Gray Fox, Listener of the DB, Sheogorath, etc.

I think, it is lore-correct, to say, that the Champion of Cyrodiil had become prince of madness.

I know it's just my opinion. but I THINK i read that somewhere also....i don't know but it's been bugging me for a week or so now.

The CoC became the new Sheogorath. He (old Sheogorath) wanted a champion to mantle him, the CoC fit the bill, and Sheo got you to mantle him. Thus, the CoC became the new Sheogorath.

AH HAH! this is what I read.

"The mystery of Sheogorath and his realm are revealed in the tome called Shivering Isles. The realm of Sheogorath was previously known as Madhouse, but in the recent survived tome, we know that the realm of madness is called Shivering Isles by Sheogorath himself. The tome tells the story of a young hero who was hired by Sheogorath to stop the Greymarch, an event that occurs in the end of an Era. According to Yngvar the Wanderer in his book "The Predecessors", the Greymarch occurs every 1000 years, thus we may assume that an Era in Shivering Isles is 1000 years."

quoted from http://www.imperial-library.info/book_daedra/index1.shtml#sheogorath It never refers to them as "the champion of cyrodill" just as "young hero" so that leaves it open for us to decide i suppose yay for role-playing games!

It's commonly accepted that the CoC mantled Sheogorath. Mantling is, simply put, doing the actions that a certain deity would, in this case Sheogorath, until you become that deity. This is not permanant, and the original Sheogorath will return later.

There are other theory's of course, including the "CoC went stark-raving bonkers, and just thinks he's the Prince of madness" theory.

its the folly of being able to be everything.

They are the same person, yet they are not. It depends on you, how you played it.

yeah i know to me there not. but i wonder how bethesda will handle it in TES V... since we broke the curse that was on jygalag by taking it ourselves apparently...will sheogorath be in the next game?...i hope so because he is one of my favorite daedric princes

I don't think so. The CoC has taken Sheogoraths place and "rule" the Shivering Isles, but he is not a true Daedroth (even Malacath is more Daedra then the CoC). He won't appear if someone pray at Sheogoraths shrine. The "real" Sheogorath is gone, Jyggalag returned and won't be Sheogorath again (I think so).

Times change in TES very quick.

We shall have our mad banker, for there will be no difference. (I'm currently a member of the CoC shall become adjusted completely to his role crowd, that is, we won't know the difference between old Sheo and New in turns of behavior)

That's only true for Oblivion. I'm willing to bet the "real" Sheogorath, voice and all, will be back at his shrine in the next game. A Daedric Prince is both his/her realm and physical manifestation. The physical shell that imprisoned the Prince of Order has been destroyed for good, but it was merely a manifestation of the latent energies of his Sphere. It's strongly implied that once created, a Daedric Prince can never truly be destroyed, as long as his Realm is relevant, and Madness still exists.

I think that in this case it would be better to refer to the Champion of Cyrodiil and the Champion of the Isles as simply the Champion thus leaving it in the middle what the player actually has done.

Since Daedra have no fixed shape or form it makes sense if he looks and sounds the same in every game regardless if he isn't technically the same person
But since you may not be the Champion Of Cyrodil by this stage its only logical to not say they're the same
Besides if you told someone you had become an all-mighty god who just happened to be the god of madness, who would believe you? The historians who write the books wouldn't

I think being Gray Fox, Archmage, FG leader, and whatnot all at the same time is crazy enough for CoC to be also Mad God.

He may as well be the new Mad God. They have to dispose of the previous game's hero in each new game, so why not make him Sheogorath?

So, does this mean according to lore that you should do the MQ first then shivering isles?

Cause if so, I'm boned.

Could be the other way around if you wish it. Hey, you are the prince of madness!

Do you guys think, that it is the will of Bethesda (and in this case Lore) that the listener of the Dark Brotherhood and the holy Crusader of the Knights of the Nine are the same person? In fact, you are able to own all this titles but is it Lore?

Yesno you are aren't.

Uncertainty is quite appropriate here. Not just for the Nerevarine but any character played by the player as there simply exists no single vision of him.

Also see sermon 4 where Vivec argues over lore with the other devs.

Modreyn Oreyn seems to be a good example of this. At the end of the Fighter's Guild questline he gives you the 'Helm Of Oreyn Bearclaw' which is an object the Nerervarine can receive in Morrowind. He says a 'stranger' gave it to him. Not the Nerevarine. This is because if you played Morrowind and didn't receive it, it would ruin the freedom if you get what I mean.
So although it doesn't say it was the Nerevarine it doesn't say it wasn't
Therefore lore will never say the Champion Of Cyrodil was Listener in the Black Hand because however you played it he may not have been.
Make sense?

The way Bethesda gets around the whole player choice problem in the TES world is to use titles, so we may hear rumours in future games about the Champion of Cyrodiil and the Hero of Kvatch but we won't be told they were the same man/woman because they don't have to be, the same with the SI quest and the other titles you can aquire in the game, someone became the new Sheogorath and someone became the new Listener of the Black Hand, even if you did not.

Exactly, though don't you kinda have to be Hero Of Kvatch to be Champion Of Cyrodil?

You can be the Hero of Kvatch without doing any of the Main Quest, but given that history cannot move forward wiothout the main events happening whoever took on saving Martin etc would then become Champion, with you being the Hero of Kvatch.