say no more you took the words right out of my mouth, if these games didnt have stats how could i beef up my magic skills and know im getting more powerful? i seriously would just stop playing RPG games and i've been playing for 19 years.

Umm, I've been playing RPGs for the majority of my life. I started playing RPGs starting with Arena and I have played plenty of RPGs and it seems that people have lost the grasp of what an RPG is and it isn't the developers. An RPG relies on Roleplaying not on stats, it's sort've in the name.... That's like calling an Age of Empires not an RTS because it didn't use turn based systems anymore. Just because a genre used something in the past doesn't mean that's what the genre was built on. The reason stats were put in RPGs because that was the limitations of the technology back then. Now attributes are irrelevant because they have little effect on the game anymore, so the best thing is to go down the the bare minimum of stats (Health, Stamina and Magicka) and allow the diversity that was once ruled by attributes be ruled by new systems like perks, improved racials, birthsigns and other factors such as gear.

To be honest I find westerns to be more cliche than fantasy role-playing.

And I'd rather hear the story of a big, hulking, bearded viking slay dragons with an epicly-oversized axe than the story of a girl becoming a werewolf , not to come off as offensive, but you gotta realize there's a reason that the "cliche" stories are the most popular- theyre epic, all-encompassing, reach to a place in us that we all have, and never truly get old.

Like I said, cliche does not always equal bad.

Well:



and

Who said stats are bad? I said some stats are bad, SOME. I want stats to realistically define my character. Luck was just plain nonsensical, things such as one's intelligence, strenghth, and agility don't raise from gaining levels and, is in most RPGs, they definitely don't raise by getting experience points to raise levels. Dice rolls don't determine a weapon going through a person and doing nothing, in real life. Separate skills, such as athletics and acrobatics, take too long to level and require tedious powergaming. The attribute multiplyer system of Morrowind and Oblivion was just plain broken, in my opinion. The 18 skills that Skyrim will have, which seems to encompass a larger variety of things, including more naturally increasing attributes, seem to be good enough for me and are handled more realistically. I've already posted why I think so, as I have in regards to my thoughts about class being nonsensical limitations. In real life, you can become something else and do something else at any time, but as Skyrim will be simulating, you're obviously not as good at it, at first, but it is possible and permanent, set classes are nonexistant in real life. Stats matter, but my point is that the old ways of handling them are outdated, clunky, and pathetic. Of course stats matter. Did I not say I want progression? The difference is that I want progression is a realistic, more immersive manner, and I've already stated this, so please tell me what is actually wrong with my argument instead of stating I, or others arguing, don't want stats.

hell no! on oblivion theirs all sorts of areas that you cant reach because you cant jump very high lets say, now as i pass through i know im gonna want to return here when my acrobatics skill has improved so i can get the treasure, its things like that that make RPG games fun,starting out and being able to summon a dremora lord or lich isnt something you should be able to do just cause you have the spell, it takes willpower and intelligence and you can only earn that from learning your skills and levels. i dont want to be able to farm cash on the game and go and buy the best spell at the very start of the game and actually be able to cast it cause theirs no limit to skill cause there are none.

I'm not sure why everyone thinks stats are out of the game, they just aren't a number value that you tweak and by magical formulas that you don't see they change your characters power. Stats do NOT have to be numbers, they can take form of anything to diversify and power up your character. Perks, Skills, racials, birth signs and gear themselves augment and are now your stats.



RPGs are roleplaying meaning you become your character, that is the biggest factor of an RPG. You play through an RPG through a process of character development which numbered stats can be one incarnation of it. The new system for Skyrim is it's own form of stats and revolutionizing an old system that has slowly become irrelevant as new systems have arrived.



Well first of all, acrobatics in Morrowind were completely unrealistic and was ridiculous. Oh look I have maxed acrobatics, and now I can jump over 30 foot high walls, that's just stupid. As for your summoning example, that is exactly Morrowind. With Oblivion you can't just up and buy a high level summoning spell and use it. In morrowind on the other hand you can. As long as you had the money to buy the spell and had the mana to cast it, you could use it. In Oblivion it is impossible to use it because you have to have the skill level to even attempt to cast it, let alone the mana. Please try not to mix up your games here.

Where does that correlate to character stats?

For example: A players in game choices, play style, story elements could all determine character progression and advancement gaining them new abilities or powers. Not stats required.

There's no way you can objectively call a game the best of all time. It's like saying what's the best food of all time. Different tastes for everyone.

Cool your jets, good sir. That post wasn't even directed at you. It was directed in response to Xarnac's post.

Do you expel a paragraph on every statement that contradicts yours? :blink:

Yes, yes I do!

Really... I do...

look if they have to take away some stats it better not be the magic ones cause that whole platform defines my character type and if all of a sudden i dont have mysticism and illusion and they merge it with destruction or something this game is getting a F- from me and i will not buy it and i will encourage my friends not to buy it, i really dont think bethesda is foolish enough to unravel one of the greatest game sagas in the world.

The only reason why stats are important in RPGs is because this is the only way to define our character - how strong is he? Is he smart? Is he well versed in magic? Stats help create character.

And saying this, stats are definitely not the only feature which makes an RPG. But I don't feel like having this argument again.

As for the OP's question, I need much more information to decide, although it will kinda be very difficult to best some of my favourite RPGs (Fallout, Arcanum, Daggerfall, Morrowind).

Well taking stats from a RPG pretty much makes it an Adventure game.

I voted NOT GOING TO HAPPEN...because the way you worded your question makes it sound like even future, unheard of games are included in the definition. I think it will be the best...SO FAR. But will be eclipsed by ES VI....which will be eclipsed by ES VII, etc, etc.....

Those aren't stats, those are skills. I think you have been missing the whole conversation then. Mysticism was removed from the game because it didn't make sense and instead they took the spells in Mysticism and put it in schools that they had common with like reflect spells went to alteration with the other shield spells and dispel and detect life should go into illusion with night eye. They aren't unraveling anything, they are putting attributes into the background and bringing a more diverse and more interesting differentiating system to the front. I've played this game series since 1998 and this has been the most exciting thing to happen to the series since the AI jump in Oblivion. As for if you decide to not buy it and then try to turn your friends off of it out of spite toward Bethesda, oh well, it won't affect the game whatsoever. For those of you guys that won't even give the game a chance and don't play it or you play it but since you already seething with anger while playing it, ruining the gaming experience for you, we can always get new players to replace you with a new generation of gamers that will pick up the game like the new infusion of gamers that came with Oblivion and with Morrowind before it. I've seen the paradigm shift with so many games and Skyrim seems like one of those paradigm shifts.

Honestly I think its getting a little blown out of proportion. If the new system allows us to have our own unique builds/characters with inherent strengths and weakness, like it always has in the past, a single-player D&D medium if you will, I will be content. I just dont want to lose content!

yeah i like to open my inventory and see myskills like mysticism, illusion, destruction and all the rest and see where i stand and what i could improve next that was one of my favorite things about the game really, was trying to over power all the mages and people like that because 1 it constantly gives you something other than questing to do that is beneficiery to your player and 2 i like the sense of accomplishment it gives me to know that im getting there, slowly but surely.

well what the hell are we talkin about here luck strength attributes??? and what do mean mysticism doesnt make sense that skill can govern many things, soul stealing necromancy, shields detect life ect. i dont think they will but if they take awy my favorite skill mysticism, thats it im done i might as well delete my account and stop counting the days cause thats [censored].

Well we lost content moving from Daggerfall to Morrowind and no one seemed to complain...well they did and everyone said that The Elder Scrolls Morrowind is the greatest game in the history of the universe. but then Oblivion came around and everyone said Oblivion svcked because they took away content. What content was removed? Nothing that's what, the only thing you lost was armor slots which were consolidated into fewer slots because they didn't think players would care that their armor values didn't change, they just didn't have a choice between two different shoulderpads and then everyone went insane. The only thing you lost from Morrowind was some spells and Spears and then they added unique content in Oblivion such as, voice overs, quest markers, new improved speechcraft system, GREATLY improved lockpicking system, improved sneak skill and the ability to gain quests from overhearing villagers conversing. I think it was a nice trade off seeing how Oblivion actually came out with more content than went into it.

I'm sure a lot people complained about Daggerfall > Morrowind, I complained about Morrowind > Oblivion(not in this forum) and now I complain about Oblivion > Skyrim.
It seems it's more easy just to drop skills and contents instead of trying to make them work.

Not really what I'm talking about. Forget the past and use Oblivion as a stepping stone. I want more, blow us away and make the most in depth, content filled RPG ever. That's all I want. I wouldn't even care if I had a great computer, I would just get mods, but I cant. I'm stuck with vanilla, so they gotta' make it count.

Ouch, your going to be pissed then, Mysticism was removed. We are talking about attributes, like luck strength and all those. They are no longer values you can alter directly in the game. They were pushed back into the background and were replaced with a system that is more rewarding and more diverse. As for your mysticism skill, it only consisted of 6 spell types. Don't worry, they are still in the game, they are just put in their correct schools. The reason I say correct schools is because the shield spells are Alteration and it only makes sense that the reflect spells would also be in alteration, if they are even still in the game. Telekinesis will most likely also go to alteration and soul trap, detect life and dispel will most likely go to Illusion. Personally Alteration, destruction and illusion are my favorite skills and I never used mysticism though I would've loved to have telekinesis more.



I really think that there is a lot more content in this game than was in both Morrowind and Oblivion. Less skills doesn't mean less content, the three skills removed were actually just put into other skills. With the new combat system, the new crafting systems and new interactions with NPCs such as random quests and events and inheritance. If content is your biggest worry, then don't worry.

are you [censored] kidding me what well what the hell are you going to put soul trap and reannimate cause those are MYSTICISM governed only you cant be serious where did you hear this? i mean do you even know what mysticism is> it's the most difficult school to master for all mages and great sorcerers theirs so much lore on it theres even a book on oblivion called mysticism and now there just goung to abolish the name. screw this crap man bethesda may have just lost a great fan im crushed by this appolling news.