Well i would like it to be so that when you hit, you hit. And when you dont hit, you miss. Not that complicated, eh?

thats quite an opinion

I personally prefer the morrowind method of attacking, if your weapon skill is high enough (50+) you practically never miss anyway.
They will no doubt bring back oblivions combat system but i hope not, i couldnt stand it, no matter what your weapon skill was the combat would be 'hit, hit, get blocked, hit, hit, get blocked etc',
at least with the morrowind system there was a sense that you were getting better when your skills raised.
I hope they atleast make some major changes to oblivions combat method for skyrim, but i wont be surprised if they dont. :sadvaultboy:

Only problem I have with Oblivions weapon system was you could never tell how strong weapons were that weren't in your main weapon class. Really reduces incentive to choose different weapon skills in other playthroughs or to train up other weapon skills. Just wish they would show some sort of mid or avg weapon damage below the skill based weapon damage so you could compare the weapons

Realy, the best solution I see is having a system like in Deadly Reflex, where you have a dodge button wich when pressed you duck swiftly. the NPC's get to dodge based on their acrobatics and agility skills, while if the player wants to dodge they press the dodge button.

It's not hard to dodge a few blows either, I can easily dodge a power attack from a hammer, or dodge arrows if I get the timing right.
Then to take it one step further they can add an option to 'auto dodge' for the player if they would rather let the game do it automaticaly, but those who rather being in full control can rely on the manual option.

Handling a weapon with low skill should penalize attack speed and add sway so that your attacks may go off the side.... that would give the enemy greater chance of avoiding your attacks and essentially is what a dice roll is mimicking.

to ad to that, even have different sets of animations; novice, apprentice, journeyman and master. Novice animations could be uncoordinated flailing, while apprentice would be more sensible weapon use, by the time to get to master, you'd have precise, minimal movement that is direct and swift.

I forgot to mention that my suggestion requires NPC AI to have a somewhat real priority for self preservation instead of Oblivion's "run around randomly and/or stand right in front of you".

dice-rolls are not the essence of what an rpg is. They are a mechanic used in most old rpgs. RPG stands for Role-Playing-Game. Rpg's are about immersion and depth in a new or unknown setting. Dice-rolls have nothing to do with the essence of what an rpg is.

It doesn't matter what RPG's were intended to be, it only matters what they have come to mean to us. You are in the vast minority if you truly believe an RPG has nothing to do with character development and whether it's on paper or in a video game numbers will be needed to represent the characters we play. Those numbers are the representation of the sum of our actions and without them there is no development or cause and effect created by the outcome of that development.

I for one am pro first person but what your suggesting is not the solution your looking for. The actions performed by your character although not based on character stats will also require numbers to represent them in the virtual world. So instead of different numbers for different characters they would all be the same for every character created by everyone. At that point all that remains is player skill. That's not an RPG by today's standards (if in fact it was ever standardized any other way as you claim) and it's the fans of today's standards that are paying the bills.

So, since there is no getting away from the RPG = Character Stats and given the fact that Bethesda makes RPG's because it's what they like to play then that only leaves one option. Marry first person real time combat with a significantly meaningful dependence on character skill. That will take time to perfect and we are getting there slowly but surely.

If that doesn't sound good to you then perhaps a game like Assassins Creed is more your bag(not an rpg btw).

I'm going to layout a bit of a combat system that I've had in the back of my mind for quite a while. It won't be the system used in Skyrim because Bethesda never asked for my input, I doubt I'll ever get to play such a system but here it is. The inspiration comes from an old game that was based solely on first person melee combat; Punchout! (or Super Punchout for you youngin's)

Basically you get 4 combat buttons, 3 control your attacks and 1 is dedicated to defense. What the 3 attacks are would be setup by the player, Slash/Chop/Thrust, Slash/Punch/Kick, Chop/Shield-Bash/Headbutt ect. The holding down the defense button puts you in a defensive posture releasing it put you back into an aggressive posture. Whenever an attack button is hit the computer does its random dice roll against all influencing factors and triggers a hit/miss/dodge/block/glancing blow animation. Preferably there should be several different animations for each depending on the type of attack initiated, the skill of the target and a random factor so that not every bandit you face blocks a sword thrust the exact same way. As you advance in weapon skill you open up more attack types to chose from, faster less powerful strikes or slower stronger strikes, also strikes from different schools of combat. Think about the difference between fencing, historic European and hapkido styles of swordplay. Unarmed combat would be even more fun because you could mix and match western boxing, martial arts and grappling. I'd even go so far as to have your defensive/aggressive posture dictate your combat style. Lets say that a player is armed with sword and shield, in their defensive stance they are slightly crouched with shield up to the level of their face and sword held back with the tip at the top of the shield and pointed at the opponent. From this stance the 3 attacks would be a shield bash, a quick sword thrust and a snap kick. Go back into your aggressive stance and your character no longer fears death, the 3 attacks are now a shield slash, a lunging thrust and a wide arching devastatingly powerful slash.

While the defense button is held down your character will attempt to block every incoming strike, but again success is determined by dice roll because you as the player are either pushing the button or not it is characters' skill that matters. (and no "timed blocks", this is combat not parappa the rapper!!) Having a larger shield would give the character a defacto skill boost to Block. Dodging an incoming attack would be a simple double-tap of a direction button.

Basically I want Morrowind attacking and Oblivion blocking turned inside out, revamped and hopped up on skooma.

Last I checked Mass Effect was an RPG and it didn't go by numbers to decide whether or not you hit someone and fable is an RPG and neither did that, I say if you swing and see your attack make contact with the enemy then it's a hit even if it's a weak one or is deflected but swinging away and seeing your attack hit the enemy and having nothing happen like in Morrowind is just plain stupid also if wanting the game to require player skill is in the "minority" as you clearly seem to think then why did they change it in Oblivion?

I don't see any problem with dice rolls for Lockpicking, Pickpocketing and other skills. But with real time combat it just doesn't feel right. Unless it was turn based.

Argument 1: If you are unskilled in using a weapon, you SHOULD be missing most of the time with it.

Counterargument: I have a 3 in "baseball bats", and can still KO a pitcher with a line drive. Life isn't rolling 1d100 to see if I hit that ball. It checks "is the bat trying to occupy the same space as the ball?". When it hits true, the ball goes flying. Since I'm at bat, the likely trajectory intersects the pitcher's head. If I were Miguel Cabrera, I'd be selecting a better angle, and perhaps hitting a little harder, but not tremendously so. However, I would be able to hit a faster pitch and many more slower pitches because I'd have better timing.

Suggested Resolution: The easiest way is to alter *non-swing* portions of the animation. Slow wind-up, or long recovery. Intermediate options would be to figure out the differences in swing technique, and animating them with corrolating effects on damage. Advanced options to mimic life while making character skill matter involve offering "reach aids" to players, and having them not quite be accurate (think a red/green cursor that turns to green too early or too late, and mastery turns it on EXACTLY right)

Argument 2: dice rolls are RPGs.

Counterargument: If I modify D&D 4th edition to work off of a computer-generated trick of Euchre, is it now something else? What if I simulate randomness by making the players walk to the kitchen blindfolded, and count the number of times they walk into random objects? or, what if we choose to resolve combat related rolls by basemant WWE matches? Is the game less of an RPG just because we took away your dice?

Suggested Resolution: There is not and never will be one, I'm afraid. That said, if anyone at Bethesda can proof of concept a Random Euchre Generator for lockpicking, combat, or any other system, I'd be dutifully grateful. And looking for a way to always have right-left-ace in my virtual hand.

Argument 3: all Morrowind needed was the correct animations.

Counterargument: Ok, so I pick up a sword. No training, no nothing. I slash at you. Because I'm unskilled, the world retroactively makes you dodge. HUH? Ok, so we roll the dice the instant you release the button... but what if the dodge animation doesn't get the mudcrab clear? Is it now a hit? Or is it still a magical mystical miss?

Suggested Resolution: The only logical answer to the problem is that "if your sword cuts through the character model, it's a hit." What lengths we go to make that happen less often is an entirely different mattter. However, it's clearly NOT an animation issue. What's on-screen must match the game state.

Argument 4: Seriously, just add dodge animations.

Counterargument: So you have a creature equally agile to the player... and the AI doesn't dodge. I attack. It still doesn't dodge. Physics engine says "well, it's going to hit". Dice roll engine says "NO!". Dodge played. Cast Fortify Blade for 20 points/30 sec. Creature suddenly loses its dodging mojo. How is THAT believable.

Suggested Resolution: The dodging needs to happen BEFORE the swing gets going. It needs to be based on an AI decision, not a check of the PC's skill. However, then we have options. low PC skill could, for example, "telegraph" the attack. The AI would have 2-3 world updates to realize "hey, dodging would be a better idea than trying to bite an ankle." and react. Thus, the creature is moving back when the sword starts to move forward. The blow is avoided or not, and it looks completely natural. As PC skill improves, the telegraph strength and window vanish. Casting Fortify Blade doesn't overtly change the look and feel, just the outcome.


Simple answer: Logically speaking, Morrowind simply didn't decide whether it wanted to be a P&P RPG, or whether it wanted to be a true first person real-time game. Oblivion, on the other hand, decided that "skill" equated directly to "damage output". Neither one has been a home run. Reality holds the best clues: experience is about decision-making moreso than hit/miss or damage, AI needs to anticipate and dodge better. Skilled weapon users have significantly less "Tell" in them.

Anyone care to guess how I voted?

id like to ase shield blocking to be manual and weapon parrying to be automatic

For this kind of game, i think combat should be entirely managed by player skills, an hybrid choise would break all (active striking but passive blocking) as well imho an all skill-related combat system. However both attack and defense must be realted to both weapon skill and attributes.
E.G: It's stupid for a directly controlled game to have a chance based combat system. Even if i'm not so skilled with a sword, if I perform a slash, unless there is a passive evasion skill, it would hit for sure, what certainly will change is the damage dealt with every slash, due to my skill with the sword and my attributes.

Nope you completely missed it.


Never said anything about removing player skill. I was responding to someone wanting to remove stats in favor of pure player skill based game play.





Don't argue for the sake of arguing without reading and absorbing the point your debating.

RPGs are about taking the role of the character you are playing. That character is represented by a table of stats. There is no better way to do it. When you perform an action that relies on character skill, these stats needs to be checked, be it by dice-roll, RNG, or some other numerical method.

Even in real time combat, you should be able to miss.

So, I prefer a morrowind sword system, with a Oblivion block system.

Morrowind all the way. Unless the devs can think of some other way to make combat and blocking SKILL actually affect my success despite the "just aim to succeed" method in TESIV...

That said. the TESIII method could use improvement, such as dodge animations, deflection sounds, etc. for missed strikes.

Surely having direct control over the PC is a superior method of immersing oneself into the character's role? It just screams: "this is me". And as others have suggested, crappy stats could still have direct influence over combat effectiveness by affecting player speed/recovery/moves available. But I think the point is this: the combat system should be fun to play.

Oblivion definitely for both.

I used to hate the fact I could be swinging directly at an enemy and not even connecting! The amount of damage inflicted should be the only thing that varies.

It should be manual just like Oblivion, but with no recoil. I hated this in Oblivion; the constant need to block, wait for the enemy to strike, strike, wait and repeat. It was boring. Just make it that when you raise your shield, your defence is boosted.

Oblivion style.

I'm sure there are plenty of ways to incorporate traditional RPG elements into an Obliviion-esque combat system.

But Combat was the only area that Morrowind was lacking in. Nothing like stabbing a scrib 15 times with the end result of "nothing happening" to take the immersion out of the game.

How about, skill SEVERLY impacts the amount of damage you do? What if your blunt skill is 5, and you're attacking a heavily armed Nord with a warhammer? You shouldn't do ANY damage at all, not even a little. Just a suggestion.

OB for both of course. If you control manually your character it's stupid to have a "miss" option, because you already miss if you aren't near your enemy. Same for blocking.