For me, I love modding communities in general. You'll see I have posts from MW to FO3. So why do I keep coming back to morrowind all the time? Because to me it's home. I breathe a sigh of relief every time I hear that good ol' starting music after a long time away, and I know people here. I can remember past events and even be involved in something tangible, like bringing something to life in game. It didn't just happen.. I was there and this is the result of caring. It was the result of working on something however you are able. That makes a game so much better than those out of the box sorts you have no say over.

After all this time, so much has been accomplished and even at it's age, you can still post and get input. The morrowind forums to me have always been a great place to be, despite the times it may have it's flaws. There is always so much potential here. Even when OB came out, morrowind was still better. Sure the engine was easier to use, but there was and still is a good deal of hostility. And I know it may seem like the community is divided somewhat, but I feel like pointing something out.

When it comes time to make clothing, is it not usually by the standards of the BB mod? While OB was making new mesh after new mesh, adding confusion and disarray to which bodies/clothing to use, morrowind was unified. That's not to say the MW doesn't need to work on a few things, but overall, we tend to agree to certain standards here, while still enabling each person to create unique visions of what we desire.


For me, I like being in modding communites because it is an area full of potential, where creativity is not only expressed, but to some degree enabled.. and it was morrowind where I first found an active base of people who felt the same. Before then, I was wandering from game to game simply wishing I could do more. Any other game you either had to be part of a select group or have awesome skills to be truly involved in anything, and that was assuming activity was good.

When I came to the morrowind forums the first time, I believe it was for a patch. What I do remember though is I became enthralled as I learned more and more.. here was a place where beginners and experienced players and modders could all talk on the same level. Where even the smallest of the small could be a part of something greater, and where the best modders were not only willing to answer questions but to teach. There is a place for everyone, from those who are very knowledgeable to the unlearned. In time all have the chance to do something and give back to one another.

It was and always has been a true community; even with it's ups and downs. Even with the addition of OB and FO3, this forum, at least to me, has always been the most accepting and the one with the most history. While many here started as just simply other posters, I have over time begun to regard them as my friends, even if I am more or less unknown to many of them.

TDW- then don't. Add your talent to the TR project or work on your own projects. But the value of a mod shouldn't be judged by how big it is. You're writing off a lot of really fantastic work in your statements, and I personally don't appreciate it.

I can understand that, some times these forums seem so slow!




DW, you just made me laugh out loud and my housemate now thinks i am strange lol, that is the best quote of the week.

I'm one of those working on a TC... I've been working on it for about 2 years, and I think it's about 40% complete... If I don't count the hundred or so quests that are still only story lines in the back of my head.

I started the mod simply because my family created a D&D world that we all played in at one time or another, and my target players are my family... I would, of course, love it if other people liked it and wanted to play it, but for me, it's my family and the journey of creation that are important.

When I first started this project, I could use the CS, and do some scripting, a little retexturing, and perhaps make a decent small mod. I made a couple that I never released because I never really felt they wre finished enough, but my friends and family enjoyed them. The point is that I really was not and perhaps am not an experienced modder...

Interestingly enough though, it occurred to me a while back that the first parts of this mod that are done may need to be redone... simply because I didn't have a complete understanding of what I was doing at the time, and I have improved enough now to know the difference.

So, I think this mod will never be done, but in a way, I really don't care. The journey has been amazing... talking with the great people on the forums, learning things I never imagined (and demonstrating my ignorance at every opportunity), and gaining the feeling of having created something different, even though it is in evolution rather than complete.

I think that while some may call Morrowind modding decorating a corpse, and that the game engine is less than fully desireable is in some sense true, that really doesn't detract from the experience of combining things in new ways and creating a different atmospehere for something that may in some ways be a bit too familiar.

In the end, I think it comes down to "I did this, and I enjoyed doing it (and playing it), and if you enjoy it too, who could ask for more? However, if you don't like it, leave it alone and find something else. That's the great thing about modding, not everything has to great or liked by everyone to give a sense of accomplishment.

neildarkstar - this is my point. You say the "mod might never be done but its been great doing it" - If it gets to the point where you not gonna do any more. Dont run away! release what you have done. If one person downloads it and enjoys it then it was worth it!

I definitely won't just abandon it... 'Course, I'd have to wash it's face and brush it's hair, but I'd put it up somewhere...

Indeed.

-DW

I can certainly understand your frustrations, and have been following some of your mods. They are well thought out overall, and I see you have skills. But that said, all of the modders here have things they hoped for, or mods that they have worked on that went flat. It is part of being involved in the modding process. Even I have had my let downs. I was unable to do anything about it at the time, because I have bad long term memory, so it prevents me from using the CS to it's fullest. I am always forgetting things I used to know and often spending all my time relearning. Each of us are bound to to have difficulties though. It's what you do about it that counts.

I believe this is the real reason so many are willing to release their mods for further work. We have all been there, and all have things we wanted done better or brought to light. A true modder understands that player styles are diverse and there is no harm in letting others at least try it out. After all, a lot of work goes into a mod, and it's nice that someone appreciates it.

In my case, I decided to become a beta tester and concept person; as this is were I can best perform atm. Maybe one day I will be able to find a specific team I can work with despite my memory issues, but for now, I just help where ever I can, because I love the game and helping people. I don't let my past disappointments get the best of me.

If you really feel so strongly about the need for better mods, what is stopping you? MW is a very modifiable game, even if the engine is a bit clunky, and you by your own words have many skills.. more than enough to help others in their endeavors, and mods of your own like "daywalker's vampires." We get a lot of large and very inspirational ideas from posters here quite often. I am sure there is a place for your skills if you feel so unaccomplished. I really don't understand why you could not achieve what you are looking for.

I do not have a “compact” answer at the moment. So, just “scattered” remarks:

Why MW modding is still alive? The main reason from my point of view is that there are no new (or very few, e.g. Oblivion, I do not like this game) moddable fantasy RPG games. Under “moddable” I understand certain features: 1. user-friendly level designer/sandbox/construction set (MW TESCS), not something like buggy monster - DAO Tool Set that requires solid knowledge of C++ programming; 2. relatively understandable for a non-professional NetImmerse MW game engine and simple endogenous scripting language; 3. available exporters (original and NifTools, Blender/Max/Maya); 4. available original sample Max files; 5. huge number of tutorials and some original documentation (MaxImmerse/Gamebryo docs). This creates a unique modding background: even a newcomer can create some game asserts/mods in a short period of time. Modding modern games that are based on complex engines is hard, productivity is slow, often no information and tools: no fun, that’s not for hobbyists. There are few other comparably moddable games e.g. Sims series, Second Life, but I do not like this genre.

Team work. For me this means sacrifice (it is necessary to take in consideration opinion of other team members) and responsibility (promised work should be done and in time). I am modding for fun (doing exclusively what I want and how I want) and when I have time/inspiration. Hence, I have to prefer solo work. Good team is more productive than a sum of individual workers, but a bad team is less efficient than this sum (frustrations, unproductive debates, etc.). It is very difficult to organize a “good team” in general, not only on the web.

Lack of novelty and absence “big” projects. I agree with your conclusions. But, look we are doing what is interesting for us: how can I convince community programmers (I am not a programmer) to concentrate on improvements of MW animation system that has several serious limitations and remained “untouched” from the game release (I “approached” them several times) when they (except Hrnchamd) are interested in polishing graphics? Another reason: what is not new for an experienced modder could be totally new for a beginner or newcomer it a particular modding area (texturer starts to script). Personally I prefer “big” projects (long quests with numerous new game asserts), and agree with TheDaywalker (many of these “Oblivion style”, “expanded”, “better”, “retexture”, “new sword”, zillion+1 shop are great only for the author and his/her buddies and that is fine but does not encourage: Underground like mods that contains all of the above and much more - do) but RL often interrupts such long-runs of mine.

Modding mods and freedom of modding. Well, people are different: I request no credits, no permissions – total freedom, but I respect conditions issued by others (permission contacts, future mod description, screenshots requests, etc.). Honestly, I prefer not to use anything from such authors. The same is valid for sharing tricks and information: I am modding mainly for myself and do not care how many times my work was downloaded (they are usually so big that cannot be uploaded on official sites) or mentioned on a forum, I do not have secretes, no “intellectual property”. However, when people refuse to share their knowledge and ticks (I have particular examples) that is their right as authors/creators that should be respected.

Do not also forget differences in tastes, modding skills, playing preferences, age and cultural differences (chopping off a head is OK, nudity – no-no), etc.

I particularly think it hilarious when a relative outsider pops up out of the blue and releases what they think is a minor tweak but 70% of the community consider damn near essential.

Personally Ive always felt like simple mods are all I can create. Not being a native speaker stops me from making any dialogue-extensive mods, as I would feel uncomfortable with releasing mods full of grammatical mistakes. I'm sure I'm not the only one with that problem here. I guess working in a team would take care of that problem, since I wouldnt have to work on dialogues. I dont know, just wanted to say why I cant see myself working on "big projects".
I'd like to know what other non-native speakers think about that, have they found ways to deal with that problem?


I dont know, personally I want to know how my stuff is being used and that's why I say people should ask me first in my readmes, I feel protective towards my meshes and textures, but when I feel like I can share some knowledge to help other modders out I never keep anything to myself. I dont know a lot of stuff myself but Ive been pmed with a few technical questions from other modders along the years, and I've always tried my best to answer them. I do not think that the technical knowledge on how to create things belongs to anyone in the modding community, only the creations themselves. Not sharing his own nifs, textures, scripts and esps is one thing; not sharing technical knowledge on how these were created, in my opinion, cannot be justified in most cases. Keeping "secret" techniques to oneself when it could be useful to other modders does not strike me as the behavior of someone who belongs to a "community". But that's just my point of view.

Agreed.




I guess I'm in the minority on this but I just don't care for large mods. The larger the mod is, the less I'm likely to use it. Give me smaller mods any day.

And I have to say this: a good many of the small mods I use are, to use your words, “retexture, new sword, zillion+1 shop" mods. Those are precisely the kind of mods I most like. Those are the mods I load up my game with. I have been known to start a new character especially to experience am interesting new retexture or new sword or shop mod. These kinds of mods are not "only for the author and his/her buddies."




A great example of this is LadyDeadlock. She came over from Oblivion, found something that bugged her about the game and released a little mod that I could not imagine playing without: http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=6748 She also released a small but wonderful mod for Oblivion called Love Your Horse that I won't play without. The gigantic Wizards Island languishes unused on my burned CD collection of mods I may or may not ever get around to playing but those two tiny mods get played every game.

Personally I like the little derisions, espceially with my current character that I modded to be a virtual pariah, everybody gives some hilarious lines I don't here on more suave characters. Like the on that praises my ingenuity, but guarskin isn't meant for clothing.

Its a good example though of someone who saw something they didn't like, and sought to change it (LadyDeadlock, that is, not the snarky NPCs) that isn't just one of those things for yourself, but that anybody might find a use for. While I enjoy using NOM and MCA and all the big ones that I have running, its the little ones, the scripts by Fliggerty, the retextures and meshes that dozens of modders release on a whim, that enable you to tailor your game to your own desires. Its a better way of doing things than having a few big overhaul mods like you get with some games.

I tried to be accurate with words: “many of these “Oblivion style…”, does not mean ALL. Moreover, even a tiny simple mod for a beginner is huge achievement and a lot of fun. I respect that. Players and modders have different view point on the game and modding. Moreover, players have different preferences: I am not interested (as a player) in a collection for perfect improvements without a solid new and exiting story line, interesting quests and, yes, new artistic work. See what is happening with DAO moddinig: numerous nice heads, body shapes, tints, companions and not a single quest mod. Such situation will not convince me to replay the game but somebody will replay it gazillion of times. That’s also fine.
“Size does not matter” (“a mod shouldn't be judged by how big it is”). It does IMHO. I am not talking about BBs or Phijama's, Ren’s, Aleanne’s, Westly’s… masterpieces. Those are must-have mods. Without such mods MW will be soon forgotten. But you need all that to PLAY. What? Well known for all of us original MW quests? or visit foe second new shops? Long interesting immersion quests are necessary for playing. That’s my point of view, others might have different opinions. We all have our own truth.

As far as I understand OP, the problem/question was about something else: I am also puzzled with questions on the Forum like “what would you like to see in my future mod?” Imagine Cameron, Tarantino, Kubrick… asking movie fans: “what would you like to seen in my next film?” Lack of intention to generate new ideas and challenging tasks, that I think bothers OP.

I don't think the size of the mod makes as much of a difference as the quality does. Some of the larger mods suffer from quality issues because the person (or people) who made them either ran out of inspiration or just got tired of working on them and rushed them out just to be done with them. There are some wonderful large mods and there are some not so wonderful small ones. In the end it boils down to how much attention is paid to the little details that will make the difference in a mod's quality. I personally don't like mods where the author hasn't done the little things that you don't notice until they aren't there such as vertex shading. It's one of the main reasons I joined TR. TR's progress may be slow but the attention to detail is incredible to say the least. I'm also a purist, in that I like my mods to follow lore as closely as possible. That's not to say that everything I do is absolutely lore perfect but I try to stay as close as I can. One of the reasons I've released so few mods is because I don't have ALL the skills necessary to do all the work. My Achilles heel is dialogue. I know how to do the mechanics of putting dialogue in the game but I lack the imagination to come up with the words themselves. I'd love to find a modder who loves doing the dialogue but has problems with building and scripting. We'd make an awesome team!

This accounts for about 80% of the reason TR is still around.

:whistling:

On a serious note, I'll be needing a house in Thirsk done and if you're interested, drop me a line.

I've also notice that the community mostly takes constructive criticism very well. If I (or anyone else) tell a modder what I don't like about his or her work, they don't throw a fit, they take it into consideration and make changes when appropriate. Such a level of maturity and mutual respect is rare on the internet, and is probably why Morrowind has improved as much as it has.

I agree with TDW, t's a shme, that there are so few collobarations in this cummunity. I have followed his attempts at making new interesting mods, like his TC, Avatar and lately his involvement in Skyrim, and it seems that he is too creative for this cummunity, so his really creative ideas is not appreciated. In TR he would probably have the same clash with purists as in Skyrim.
The avatar mod seemed like a very interesting idea... not nessesarily because I want avatar in Morrowind, but because some of the best modders worked together to create a mod limited only by imagiation. I hoe that mod is still alive, because it shows the possibilities in Morrowind modding.

I like large projects as a user, because a retextured sword or the seventh modded house in Balmora doesn't add much to me but large landmass or questmods does add a lot. Lately I played the Horror mod and underground for the first time, and while neither is perfect (The horror od is way too difficult and underground is very buggy and both have unfinished areas) the offer something new, creative and really exciting contents which improve my morrowind experience (so I'm happy Huskobar is making a bugfixing patch for the underground). But mods of that size is not just something someone does alone, because it requires a lot of work and expertice in every area, so with no collaborations mods like that will not be made.

As a modder I feel the same way: I can make dialogue, quests and some scripting, but I can't create new items and I'm not good at designing interiors and exteriors, so if I work on my own, my options is limited. So I'm now part of two projects: The dwemer society (which I recently ressurected) which have good questing by looks ordinary, and Amanita where I can concentrate on quests and dialogue since SGMonkey is making the island and all interiors.

So I'm hoping that Midget is right about the development in Morrowind modding

@Zarnatheron: Thx!!! I really have had some hard times in this community with the kind of mods I'm doing, cause always I pop up with some new stuff, people try to slow me down or redirect my work after their own gusto. "You should better do this...why can't you not do this...that's not ok with lore and so on. This is really tiring me and I already lost fun to work on many of my projects because of that!!! I'm not a person who cannot deal with constructive critics and I'm thankful if someone points out sometechnical issues for example with my 3D models, which I had overlooked, but I always feel like being pushed to do something, I didn't wanted to do in my project at all.

I love large projects like Tamriel Rebuild or Skyrim, but there's nearly no artistical freedom in it for me, that's the reason why I can't commit to such a project to the fullest. If I work in a team with another modder and he does some stuff which is a bit revolutionary or extraordinary, I'd rather search for a way to integrate it in a plausible way, than having him to drop it. As long as the final product has good quality, I'm fine with that.

If I was leader of TR for example and someone would come to with the idea of having dressed bunnies in that mod, I'd allow him and make it a weird dream after having consumed a huge dose of skooma for example. You see, there is always a way to grant other modders artistical freedom in your own projects without necessarily ruining the whole project. People want to make their own thing, after their own fantasy and not what others are telling them to do. That's why most of them prefer working on their own and that's why 99% of the mods never have a realistic chance to get finished.

I've witnessed it in gemany, where MW scene is definately dead. I'm one of the last modders there making new stuff for that game, all others have quit modding or moved on to Oblivion, which is already beginning to face the same fate as MW. This community is a bit larger in numbers, but I see the same developement here as in the german community, it's just working a bit slower here.


TheDaywalker :rock:

Yup, lack of time consuming and difficult to make Total Conversions automatically means that the modding community is dieing.
Yup.

I'm sorry DW what are you on about? 99% of mods never get a chance to get finished - um well if PES, ElricM and TESNexus contain the 1% of mods that did get finished then that's a pretty awesome 1%

Who's telling who what to do - if a modder says they want to create something unique and others say it doesn't fit within the game lore - then how is that telling the modder what to do - there are plenty of non-lore mods available for download and it didn't seem to stop those modders just getting on and making something - becuase either it amused them, tickled some creative urge or they just wanted to wear high heels or bunny ears in MW.

I really loved KO's Tylwth (I hate trying to spell it) mod - where I flitted around MW for a while with wings - it was awesome - completely non-lore but who cared - it was a beautiful mod - didn't seem to bother KO whether it was lore oriented or not and she got it finished despite what anyone else did or did not want.

So what if the forums have slowed down a bit lately - I still see lots of new mods going up on PES from people who don't hang out at this forum - I've noticed a few mods being polished up by others lately and re-released - at first I wondered if it was a lack of originality on the part of the modder but then decided they just really loved that mod and wanted to dust it up a bit and fix whatever was buggy and good on them for doing so - I hope they asked for permission first as that is the polite thing to do.

I can't work out your post - on one hand you seem to be bemoaning the lack of creative team building and then on the other you say you don't want anyone to tell you what to do?

Either mod or don't - if you find someone to share your vision awesome - but it's pretty ripe moaning that the community is dead because they either arn't making the mods you want or getting involved in your vision - some of us are happy ticking along by ourselves and doing our own thing and some are even releasing their work fairly regularly - more than 1% of them.

@Zarn: I personally wouldn't suggest that anyone is any less creative because they can mod what they want within the boundaries of lore.
Finding a way to incorporate your ideas into the existing world, in an interesting, fitting way, shows a lot more creativity and thought to me.

@TDW: Still... making a bunny crackpot dream wouldn't really fit into a province mod.
A skooma overhaul maybe, but not a province mod.

Illuminiel is right, you can make mods that break lore, no one is stopping you.
But at the end of the day, if you make something like this, then ask people to just put these ideas into their lore-friendly projects, complaining later, when they say they can't use it, is unfair.
Like Axel said, working in groups means responsibility, and sacrifice, everyone having full artistic freedom in these kinds of projects leaves you with something incoherent.
A serious project which tries to mold a huge amount of largely different artistic styles together, will not look good imho.

At the end of the day, if you want your work to fit into a large project, most of the time you will have to listen to other people and edit it at the modelling level. It's called teamwork.
And, to be fair, I always gave you ways of editing your ideas into something suitable with the Skyrim mod, and every time you ignored them or shot them down.

This applies to game devolpers as well, as a matter of fact. Take a look at Morrowind's concept art and contrast with what we got in the final game.

Though to be fair, that was less "No, less detail! More generic!" and more "Wow, we really can't have five layers of silk and jangly bits on the Ordinator's scarf."

Yeah, I think the whole concept -> game deal was more to do with realistic limitations and time. The concepts did look very coherent and well thought out to me.
What I mean is more similar to what would have happened during the development I guess, the thrown away, unfitting concepts, making sure 3d artists stick to the game's style and concepts, etc.