Character death at the end of the MQ and playing after the c

Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:55 am

And to your edit, look at the phrasing of the questions. "If this were implemented definitely". I purposefully did that to open peoples' minds a little, yet you can't see past your own narrow minded approach to the franchise.
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How is the most integral part of an RPG narrow?

An RPG is about choice. Its about character building. I should be able to roleplay what I want and not be constrained by quest endings. These kinds of things are fine in faction quests, where I can simply decide my character would never become an assasin, but the main quest? Just no.
The main quest must be survivable, and without me turning evil.

Silly suggestions like 'if you dont want it, dont complete the main quest until last' have no place in elder scrolls.
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BethanyRhain
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:34 am

An RPG is about choice. Its about character building. I should be able to roleplay what I want and not be constrained by quest endings. These kinds of things are fine in faction quests, where I can simply decide my character would never become an assasin, but the main quest? Just no.
The main quest must be survivable, and without me turning evil.

Silly suggestions like 'if you dont want it, dont complete the main quest until last' have no place in elder scrolls.

Well then I would suggest that you select the 'long, optional, difficult questline' poll option. See, I'm a pretty fair guy. I would also suggest that you look at your own life experiences. Life isn't always easy. Granted TES is a game, but wouldn't it provide more of that Holy Grail - immersion - if there were consequences for one's actions in game? Because every RPG designer at the moment seems to think so. Just look at Fable and Mass Effect.

And you think that that's a silly suggestion? How about the legions of people who've told me that closing my eyes and singing over the ending of the game is a fitting substitute to BGS giving me a way to the ending I want most? Yeah, that's stupid.
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Charity Hughes
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:37 pm

Your dead. What can you do?
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sarah simon-rogaume
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:19 pm

In my opinion, the characters death should be the result of two things. Of the characters will to do good, and the characters inability to avoid bad from happening without his/her death. Therefore, if the character is intelligent enough to plan ahead, s/he should be able to avoid a situation of the "die or let others die for you" kind. If the character however always takes the straight forward path, not looking for ways to avoid the bad things from happening in the first place, but simply going forward slaying the bad guys, then this situation should be the outcome.

Reminds me of Breath Of Fire II, somewhat, in the way that to get the 100% good ending, you had to have the flying town, which wasn't an evident find. Otherwise, you need to sacrifice yourself like your mum to seal off Deathevn for good.

I can go with that, insofar it prevents an automatic "good hero wins, everybody lives" main quest ending. Since we're talking RPGs with choice and realism, I don't see how that does fit. :P Moral high ground needs consistency of action and weighting of the consequences ; and to avoid having to simply die as most hero do, Martin-style, you need to be also smart.

... And incidentally, always bugged me how I could be the CoC or the Nerevarine, and no-one in-game would acknowledge the events, even in passing "oh hai, deadra nuked a bit my shop, sorry bout the mess, here's some free potions, oh great hero".
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Tha King o Geekz
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:13 pm

Your dead. What can you do?

What if I want the ending of the game to actually have the possibility of being an actual ending? I wouldn't be proposing this idea if I wanted to always be able to play on after the MQ...
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Albert Wesker
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:32 pm

Well then I would suggest that you select the 'long, optional, difficult questline' poll option. See, I'm a pretty fair guy. I would also suggest that you look at your own life experiences. Life isn't always easy. Granted TES is a game, but wouldn't it provide more of that Holy Grail - immersion - if there were consequences for one's actions in game? Because every RPG designer at the moment seems to think so. Just look at Fable and Mass Effect.

And you think that that's a silly suggestion? How about the legions of people who've told me that closing my eyes and singing over the ending of the game is a fitting substitute to BGS giving me a way to the ending I want most? Yeah, that's stupid.



Exactly my point.
Neither fable or mass effect are RPG's

An RPG is not an RPG simply because it says so on the box. Gamemakers just like to jump on the bandwagon and have diluted what RPG means. Luckily Im old and still know what a true RPG is.

Fable is an adventure game.
Mass effect is a shooter.

They are both linear and have very few character building choices. Whoop dee doo, I can choose different swords/ guns.
That does not an RPG make.

I still cannot vote on your poll as there is no option for 'no'
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Latino HeaT
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:31 pm



They are critically acclaimed games with RPG elements. They are both made by prominent RPG developers. If those developers have shifted their focus slightly, wouldn't it make sense for BGS to say "let's make a game with slightly less breadth and slightly more depth"? Not to Fable's degree of course, but to a point where you get more consequences for your actions. Indeed, the Radiant Story sounds like they're doing just that (unless it follows the path of Radiant AI and crashes and burns).

If you're going to continue being closed minded and unable to imagine a different scenario then frankly I don't want your vote. If you're old as you say then I have to ask how you've got through life without being able to remove yourself from your current circumstances at all.
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Samantha Wood
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:04 pm

No, the point is that you already dont want my vote, since it is impossible to vote on your poll if you want to say 'no'.
You can only say no on the first question, but you have to fill in the rest and they assume you said yes.

Wonderful voting system. kind of like north Korea.

And I shall not deign to respond to personal attacks.
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Tamara Primo
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:44 pm

No.
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Judy Lynch
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:24 pm



The point of the poll is to see how people would want a death ending implemented if it had to be. The first question is a pretty good indicator of how many people want the option. If the rest of the questions had a 'no lol' option then the poll would be pointless. I really think you're missing the point of the structuring here (no offence intended).

Edit: Thank you for that extremely constructive post, Lady of the Sky.
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Sarah Edmunds
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:19 pm

Then why even have a 'no' option on the first question?

No, the way you made your poll uses false statistics.
The way you framed your questions, the outcome of your poll will indicate what you want, simply because there is no option to vote against it.
Either make your poll fair or dont bother, but dont think for one minute that there arent people here who can see through such a cheap trick.
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Amanda Furtado
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:43 pm

The point of the poll is to see how people would want a death ending implemented if it had to be. The first question is a pretty good indicator of how many people want the option. If the rest of the questions had a 'no lol' option then the poll would be pointless. I really think you're missing the point of the structuring here (no offence intended).

Edit: Thank you for that extremely constructive post, Lady of the Sky.


You're welcome. :)

Then why even have a 'no' option on the first question?

No, the way you made your poll uses false statistics.
The way you framed your questions, the outcome of your poll will indicate what you want, simply because there is no option to vote against it.
Either make your poll fair or dont bother, but dont think for one minute that there arent people here who can see through such a cheap trick.


This, I couldn't even vote because of the horrible options.
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rebecca moody
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:48 am

No, for a couple reasons.

First of all, good luck selling an expansion pack to a bunch of dead characters.

Second, as people don't want the game (and their character) to just abruptly end, it means that the only proper ending becomes the ending where they live.

I also sort of find it unlikely that Alduin, the dragon who would eat the world, is interested in making a deal with some random mortal.
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Isabel Ruiz
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:21 pm

You're welcome. :)



This, I couldn't even vote because of the horrible options.


But did you see the resultes of the last thread for this? Having just yes and no = people just voting, and not really thinking about it. The guy's putting some serious thougth into the idea. The least ya could do would be to give it some thought in return, or how his idea's could be improved upon.
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Andrea Pratt
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:21 am

The TES games have to much replay value after the MQ is complete that an official ending would be absurd. The only problem I found with New Vegas (besides the bugs) was that the game ended.
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Justin
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:35 pm

Please no "good hero is a dead hero" approach, it's just tiresome, and after Fallout 3 I don't want to hear of it ever being done by Bethesda again. It was Lame with a capital L.
Having sad that, I do think that death should be one of the possible outcomes- if you did not prepare well enough, if you haven't done some things that should have been done, if you don't know everything you need to know before going in to the big fight you would die as a consequences of being to rush or to incompetent. TES usually allows a player to take a shortcut in the main quest, you often you can just go and kill the main boss, and be done with it, having to avoid dying as a result will be a good motivation to do the main quest properly without being forced to go through all of it.
If you need a recent example, than it should be more like Mass Effect 2 than Dragon age - if you stayed alive you can play past the main quest, if you died - you died.n
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leni
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:47 pm

But did you see the resultes of the last thread for this? Having just yes and no = people just voting, and not really thinking about it. The guy's putting some serious thougth into the idea. The least ya could do would be to give it some thought in return, or how his idea's could be improved upon.


I don't like the idea, why should I think about it beyond that?
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Ezekiel Macallister
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:29 am

I don't like the idea, why should I think about it beyond that?

Common...or should I say uncommon curtisy. Respect that he didn't just say why he hated how things are now and demand a change, but instead tried to think of a workaround that could work for everyone. Human decency. Thinking can be good for the brain.

For later down the road when you have an idea you'd like to see in game, and he's looking it over.
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Jennie Skeletons
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:16 pm

I voted for burying my head in the sand and not having my character die. Thank, but no thanks.



I would've voted for avoiding death with a small, optional questline but minus the moral ambiguity.
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kyle pinchen
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:22 am

Common...or should I say uncommon curtisy. Respect that he didn't just say why he hated how things are now and demand a change, but instead tried to think of a workaround that could work for everyone. Human decency. Thinking can be good for the brain.

For later down the road when you have an idea you'd like to see in game, and he's looking it over.


I'll pass. :thumbsup:
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Kristian Perez
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:59 am

Common...or should I say uncommon curtisy. Respect that he didn't just say why he hated how things are now and demand a change, but instead tried to think of a workaround that could work for everyone. Human decency. Thinking can be good for the brain.

For later down the road when you have an idea you'd like to see in game, and he's looking it over.



Well, thats a good point.
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Davorah Katz
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:42 am

Carbuncle, why is dying in the end so important (just out of curiosity)?

I don't have anything against character dying as a result of the MQ line, but I wouldn't want it to be labeled as "default" and handled as something one has to work to get around because it implies that it has some form of inherent value over the other endings. It should be just one the results of your actions along with the others.

In the previous thread there was some talk about prompting the player about whether or not s/he wants to contiue afterwards, and I support that more than offering one way to completely deny postending gameplay (of course as long as the postending stuff does not hamper the possible endings in any way - not by limiting the possibilities by trying to simulate all the possible changes the endings provide or any other way - it has to make it clear that story is now over, and what comes next is of no consequence to anything, just freeplay for those who whish it). And, now that I think of it, rather than death, as I'm 100% sure Beth will add postending play whether I liked it or not (and I don't), I'd see it more convenient to leave the fate of the character intentionally vague and open for playerinterpretation (because it would feel kinda moronic to read a question "The story is now over and the fate of Skyrim sealed. Would you still like continue playing?" after you just witnessed your characters death).

The main thing, with this issue, I want is a well executed ending that gives me proper feedback on my choices (which the game hopefully offers - and more so: in a meaningful way) and actions, and which doesn't just drop me back after all is said and done without asking whether I want to or not, and thus flattening the ending and the sense of accomplishment.

The TES games have to much replay value after the MQ is complete that an official ending would be absurd. The only problem I found with New Vegas (besides the bugs) was that the game ended.


How does postending gameplay contribute to replayvalue as you don't start over and replay? The way I see it replayvalue comes from the ability to do things in different ways and have feedback from your choices - the way Fallou 1, 2 and New Vegas - for a couple of examples - did.
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Skrapp Stephens
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:45 pm

I do not support this idea.
Character death is a possible outcome, and has been in all of the previous games... it's just that you fail the game when you die that is different. :hubbahubba:
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Phillip Brunyee
 
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Post » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:22 am

What is this? Alduin doesn't stand a chance. I will make him beg. I will make him cry. There will be no mercy. Only death. For I am made of Pure Action.
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Alan Cutler
 
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Post » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:05 pm

I may be a minority of one, but does anyone remember the Not-Nerevarine mod for Morrowind? The one that made Jiub the Nerevarine and you were just there for the aftereffects?

I want one of those options. I'm not a hero in my games. I'm the guy who stands in the crowd cheering as the Champion of Cyrodiil rides by, while nabbing as many fat wallets as I can get ahold of. I don't want to be the savior of the world, I wanna be the savior of my empty stomach.
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sam
 
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