This. BioWare games (which the OP is comparing to TES) are generally pretty linear. I would find KOTOR or Mass Effect to be pretty boring if the game continued after completion. TES is, however, sandbox, and much less linear. While I wouldn't mind a non-continuable ending, I feel that it's just not for TES.

While I was fine with my character dying in Fallout 3 and do not want it to happen in Skyrim. And honestly I don't see Bethesda doing it because they (I think it was Todd) said doing it in Fallout 3 was a mistake. Plus, why does the good guy have to sacrifice himself all the time? I just want to freaking save everyone and have a merry time in the land I just single handedly purged of the -insert huge threat- If anything let me sacrifice something that is not another person or myself. Like in Fable 3. It would obviously be something different but a option like that where my good guy doesn't have to become a bad guy just to win. I'm fine with multiple paths to the same ending, as in more bad guy characters could do something vile to make stopping Alduin easier. But nothing major enough that requires another warp in the west please.

Edit* as others pointed out BioWare games are more linear. After the "main story" there isn't a whole lot left to do. And with there games going right after another still as the same character having the whole "This is your pocket universe cannon in your save data" thing works. But it's not something I want in Elder Scrolls.

Absolute player choice is an extremely important facet of the Elder Scrolls. You really did make yourself look like a great carbuncle with this poll and its derision of people who don't want a scripted death.

I don't see how. Instead of one big linear line in the main quest, the proposal has at least the merit of offering diverging ends according to your choice. Grey characters wheedling out the big deal in different ways, big hero accepting to die, smart big hero finding a way to save the world and his skin : that's quite a few futures for Skyrim to go through.

I'm always fan of choice and consequences and what-ifs. Hell, I even want one possible "you-completely-failed-to-save-Skyrim-s'wit" ending. With proper doomsday cinematics and people going argh to make you feel ashamed before you save and reload.

"Absolute player choice is an extremely important facet of the Elder Scrolls." True, but can someone tell me how it has been exemplified in Morrowind and Oblivion's main quests ? They're fine, but they're plain big railroads.

Doesn't it already work like this? If you ill-prepare, or aren't ready, then you die. Death = Game Over, please reload. Just instead of a long-winded memorial, you get the main menu. TES games have never expanded on what has happened as a result of the main quest. That is something of a staple of the series. Other than the immediate results, the consequences of your actions aren't seen until much later. There'd be no use of a player-death ending because there's nothing to do other than end the game, which you can do by exiting.

I'd be wary about forcing the player to do something questionable in order to survive. It shouldn't be something completely selfish. Most players want their character to live - and don't want their character (their "good" characters, at least) to have to do something selfish in order to do so. Something like the dark ritual may work, in that it can also save the life of the other person, and so is not entirely having to do with the mortality of the player character.

It's not necessarily the dying that matters to me as much as not being able to play after the main quest's ending. It's just that character death manages to satisfy my martyrdom complex (that only seems to pop up in videogames), gives a good reason as to why the hero of the game isn't prominent after the events of the game and is a logical explanation for cutting us off from post credits play. Character death can also be extremely emotive if we've come to care about our exploits enough. It's all preferable (to me) to playing until I get bored with no climactic end note.


The thing about it being the default ending is that if it isn't, character death isn't that. It's character suicide. I think that the alternative endings should be very clearly highlighted to the player (for instance Esbern reveals halfway through the MQ that Alduin's defeat will require the life of a Dovahkiin, but there's a way around it. It's not going to be easy and/or moral though), but the death ending should be the 'you didn't do anything extra to save your character for whatever reason' ending.


Well you nailed it at the end there. I still want the possibility of character death as an option, but I don't support this "your character died but would you like to resurrect them lol?" option. Sure that's great for every other ending, but I don't want the option if my character dies. It totally undermines a story that I should be extremely emotionally invested in by that point. If people [censored] about not getting the option, tough. You were told that Alduin's defeat required a sacrifice and you flagrantly ignored it. I can't help but think that there is a level of stupidity that should not be catered to for the sake of everyone with more than two brain cells. If you would cater to the kind of people who don't have the foresight to know that their actions will result in their character's death even when the game tells them so, where do you stop? No death at all? Fable 3 level hand holding?


And I personally think that post credits gameplay and decent endings are completely irreconcilable. While I understand why people would disagree and still want their post credits gameplay and don't want to take that away from them, at least give me and the other third of the voters in favour the option. Considering that the people arguing against me so often harp on about the amazing choice in the TES series and how character death restricts that, they really want to limit my end game options.

No. I don't care if my character comes back alive or whatever, my character does not die as he's the hero and hero's don't die.

I dont think a scripted ending = a good experience nor do I think continuing after the main quest means you have to have a lousy ending.



I always thought that was made of awesomesauce.

And the battle with Dagoth Ur? I still hear his monologue in my dreams. " What a grand and intoxicating innocence. I am a god!"
No, I dont think playing on after the main quest has to mean a bad story.

100% agree. For me it seems as if the 'false freedom' (of having all characters being able to experience all of the main quest) has resulted in a lack of 'true freedom' (having choices, and having meaningful consequences of those choices without which the choices are really just cosmetic), because Bethesda have wanted all characters to be able to experience every single quest. Fallout NV (which I bought yesterday, so have only played a little) seems to do this a lot better so far.

The ending of Morrowind was interesting due to all the ambiguity in what you'd done ("is this a hero's ending or was I just Vivec's pawn?")... but could have been so mind-blowing if you had actually made the choices that the Neverarine makes, instead of being forced into them.

Even if there is to be one overall ending to go down in the history books of Tamriel, like in Morrowind and Oblivion, the personal consequences for your character of the events do not have to be set in stone. Just make any mention of the hero of Skyrim in future games sufficiently vague (they do this to a large extent anyway).

As to the original issue, I'm in favour of character death at the end if it works in the context of the story. Having multiple personal outcomes for the character (where he can avoid death, possibly at some moral cost, alternatively if he plays his cards right) would be awesome too.

NO!

learn to do unbiased polls your idea is just bad.

im not even gonna bother reading all that... NO!!!

why do you want the game to come to a permanent freaking end, anyway?!

i swear, you people just want to DESTROY the elder scrolls, dont you? :flame:

I actually wrote out a 2 paragraph long response that said the same thing, but this is just so much more concise. I think making a biased poll that bashes people that disagrees with you means you forfeited the right for them to have to make intelligent arguments.

Also everything I've read from OP basically says he wants this because he wants it and thinks it's a good emotional high. To which I say that isn't what TES is about, it's about a world of freedom where players can determine what they want to do when they want to do it. And honestly if ending the MQ ended the game then there would be very few characters I would finish the game with. If you don't want play after the MQ then stop playing after the MQ. You have the ability to do that yourself, let us have the ability to keep playing if we want to.

I can understand the Fallout games having "set" endings (Broken Steel, while awesome, kind of neutered the big decision at the end of the game). However, I'd be severely disappointed if a new The Elder Scrolls game wouldn't allow us that freedom. Difficult moral decisions are good, but not part of the Elder Scrolls, nor should they be in my opinion.

By the way, a "continue after credits"-option does not a bad ending make. Case in point: Mass Effect 2. If you survive the suicide mission, the ending is no less good because you can play on afterwards.

No. To use a term I hate dearly, a morally good character having to sacrifice their life is one of my most hated clichés and this is also an Elder Scrolls game. Elder Scrolls games don't end, and I don't care if anyone wants it to be different. I don't want the game to end. There are many other games that have endings. Elder Scrolls games are pretty unique in this aspect. Why change it?

I prefer playing evil characters so some morally questionable quest to save my character wouldn't be a problem for me, but players with good characters shouldn't have to compromise their morals to keep their characters alive.

This has come up a few times now so I shall post here the message I sent to Merari on the issue.

The point of the poll is simple. I aim to establish both the percentage of people who actually want a possibility of character death and the forum's stance on how it should be implemented if it had to be.

I don't want to simply establish whether or not people want the possibility. At any rate, this is a forum. It is impossible to bring up a possibility without discussion on how it might be implemented.

As for why there are no 'no' options after the first question: the first question is enough. I can look at that and quite clearly see that roughly two thirds of forumites don't want the possibility. That's great. I recognise that and will recognise that. The rest of the poll is set in a slightly different universe in which we know that there will be the possibility and aims to establish how people would want it implemented. Thus, there is no reason for a 'no' option as it is a hypothetical situation. For example, it wouldn't make any sense if one of the options in the star map guardian's questions about tactics in a hypothetical war (KotOR) was "I wouldn't have got into a war in the first place".

I really don't know how to make this any clearer :shrug:

Hypothetical situations, people.


All games end. The TES games just happen to fall into that category that thinks getting bored is better than the possibility of a finale.


Oh... oh my god. Did you even read the OP? You people all do realise that I want this death ending to be a possibility, right? How many times do I have to say 'option' and 'possibility' and 'clear choice' before this sinks in? :banghead:

Getting bored? I'm most certainly not bored of running around in games after the main quest. That possibility of a finale, as you put it, would likely mean my morally good character has to, yet again, sacrifice his life for the greater good. I don't want that. I know MOST games end, but that is why I mentioned the unique quality of TES series having this feature. It's an Elder Scrolls thing and I want it to continue to be an Elder Scrolls thing. If the main quest is the only thing that can interest a person in an Elder Scrolls game, then I don't think they've begun to scratch the surface of why many fans like Elder Scrolls games. I hate it when a game feels only like a game when it has a definitive ending. Surely it's not unreasonable to ask that ONE series continues to have gameplay after the ending, and with the character I set out to make, not some morally grey mercenary.

OR they could go on the long, optional questline that allows your character to safeguard themselves against death while sticking to their moral archetype.

Ta da!

Not mention that I'm all for characters that don't die being allowed to play after the credits, which is one of the very first things I said in the OP.

You mentioned, in your OP, that you would want to have seen a morally grey side path to avoid death. I don't want that. I want a goody two-shoes knight that valiantly saves the day and lives to tell about it. What you just mentioned was not in your OP and I still don't like it. If you die, you die. That's not saving anything. tt's just dying for the sake of adhering to some rule about good characters having to sacrifice themselves. Whether it is able to be bypassed or not isn't my problem with it. That bypass, if it exists, must not make my character seem like a morally grey character. It must emcompass all moralities to their fullest degrees, for me, and I feel as though scripting a death that makes sense would just be a waste of time on Bethesda's part.

You asked for my opinion and you got it. There isn't much more to say about it because I'm very adamant on having it that way I mentioned.

Ya, this would be my answer to this. Sure as hell did not like how the "death" ending or the "alternate" way to handle the ending with Lyon or DLC was presented in Fallout 3, which I would consider one of the worst ending of any game I played so far.

I think this might've been done too much recently; it'd start to lose it's impact. If they have to do it, maybe they could make it so the people with the martyrdom complex have to consider making the morally grey choice. Like the "sacrifice" choice turned out to be the wrong one that had heavy consequences for the world.

Agree,it seems like OP is trying to push his idea on others how the game should just end.Im not going to sling mud but u are very pushy on how u want this game to become another lack luster rpg AND yes i want a good main story and ending im not saying i dont, but i do want to keep on playing after the main quest and after the side quests u might have a prob with this but alot of other ppl do not.Like i have said many times to the ppl that want the game to end once the main questline is done
TURN THE GAME OFF.

I disagree with ALL those options. I strongly dislike the way you make it seem as if anyone who doesn't want to die is irrational. :verymad: