Classes should actually mean something. People should react differently to a knight than they would to a mage.

Each class should also have something unique that no other class has. Like unique spells, special weapon moves, perhaps the ability for knights to use a lance, etc.

It does not have to be much, but just something useable. It makes perfect sense to me that mages, sorcerers and such would know a few unique spells. They where trained to be mages after all, the other things they seem to be learning in a matter of months.

As I have written in the other thread, perks can do all that for a class, so if each class has a unique perk (or two), that is not available otherwise, then the whole class can become as unique as the designers want, so that perk can affect the behavior of certain group(s), or affect certain dialog choices, or give abilities that other classes would lack, or give access to unique branches of weapons or spells that other classes do not have, or give the ability to use some types weapons a bit differently from other classes and so on...

Those perks as I have seen in Fallout 3 are quite powerful and versatile in what they can achieve to manipulate the way that we can interact with any aspect of the game and its environment, and I hope that in TES V, they would be even more powerful and versatile than what they have been in Fallout 3, and Bethesda would have become more experienced in what they could gain out of those perks.

And if those perks could be upgradeable in later stages of our character's progression, then those classes would never loose their distinction, and individuality.

And each perk can upgrade as a tree which could divide into branches, so you could upgrade toward one of those branches and continue in that direction, so that in the next play-through you could pick another branch, for a different experience.

Edit:


Yes, I wanted to write about those passive skills in other thread that I want to write about skills, which can be called an overhaul, but for now, lets think of a more accessible solution for the problem that KorVegor has pinpointed:

While I am playing a TES game, I'm always jumping around like a toad when I should have walked around or at least run around, and that is not a normal behavior for the dignified fighter or mage or the sneaky thief that we want to role play as.

Or I always find myself standing in the middle of the sewer and blocking their attacks, by putting a weight over the keyboard, as I have drank a long term healing potion, and gone for a cup of coffee.

Or those repeated casting of low level buff or conjuration spells and so on...

Yes, those passive skills and those magic skills have a problem that result in a form of power gaming that I have not covered yes in this thread, and I hope to find accessible solutions for them now:

When you perform an action you are naturally getting more skillful in that action, and this is the course of getting skillful in active skills, but for passive skills, you can not do an *action* and get more skillful in performing that *action*.

Edit:

I was going to write about a simpler solution for those problems, but I reached the conclusion that it would not be a good one and I have to complete the skill overhaul method that I'm working on.

So, it has to wait. :shrug:

Good point on the perks possibly being class specific, I never thought that far ahead about how it could be put into elder scrolls.

The name would probably need to be different though to suit the elder scrolls better. Perhaps it could be called traits or such instead.

I havent read the previous page fully so I hope I wont be repeating too much here, but I like to share some suggestions for perks.


-Nobility.
Nobles are in general adressed as sir or lady by NPC's when you pass by and gaining an audience with the ruling nobility is much easier for them as they are viewed as equals. Their improved relations with fellow nobles comes at the price of having less good relations with lower classes however, who might not speak freely with those of nobility. Some may be envious of the priviliged position and might hate a noble for it. Nobility will also more often be a target for bandits. They will also not be very welcome in common taverns and can count on a cold glare when entering them. They would feel more at home at an upper class tavern.

-Troublemaker.
The troublemaker is closely watched by guards and receives additional warnings. Commoners will make way for the troublemaker to pass and might whisper softly to each other about the wild rumors that are spread about this troublemaker. Gaining an audience with nobles would be very difficult for them since most nobility would prefer to see them in jail, they could need to perform additional tasks to gain some trust. The upside being that they can enter dialogue with bandits who might greet them as one of their own. From there the player can choose to attack them, leave them alone or perform a task for them such as luring a traveler into a trap or rob a passing by trade caravan. These events could be rather random and could be infinitely repeated although performing them too often at the same place could result in more guards and stronger guards traveling with the traders for protection.

-Fire mage. (exclusive to magic focused classes.)
The firemage has a natural affinity for fire, and learns to cast additional fire spells at certain masterty levels of spell schools, depending on the type of spell. They could learn to cast firestorms, flameshields for protection, a cone of fire similar to fire breathing out of their hand and do extra damage with fire spells, but less damage with other destruction spells.

-Ice mage. (exclusive to magic focused classes.)
The Icemage works similar as the firemage, having stronger ice spells but doing less damage with other destruction spells. The spells they could learn could be freeze to temporarily paralize an enemy into an ice statue, ice storm, ice shield and summoning ice weapons and armors.

-Storm mage. (exclusive to magic focused classes.)
Again similar to the firemage and ice mage with similar strenghts and weaknesses, but their own range of spells. They can learn to cast lightning shield, lightning storm, and perhaps also a lightning attack that lasts longer and does continuous damage. (something like force lightning.)

-blessed by nature.
Those blessed by nature are not attacked by common wild animals such as wolves, bears and such. They are still attacked by unnatural deformed animals such as daedra and more humanoid creatures such as minotaurs, trolls and such. They can also cast a wind spell when advancing their destruction skill far enough, this spell can blow everything straight in front of them away. (which could be a lot of fun with havoc physics) but could do little to no damage on its own. An animal companion can also be summoned and dismissed at will.

-Acrobat. (exclusive to acrobats.)
Acrobats can bend like no others, as a result they have a percentage chance to dodge attacks completely with gracefull motions whenever they are not wearing armor. They can bend over backwards to avoid a sword thrust for example. As they gain levels, the percentage chance for them to dodge can increase. They can also perform acrobatics on stages in taverns or at trade fairs for money, and their jump animations look different and far more gracefull.

-Natural archer. (exclusive to archers.)
The natural archer can recover all arrows fired, can make his own arrows out of the appropriate materials, and does additional damage with all bows.

-Assasin. (exclusive to assasins.)
The assasin gains additonal contracts outside any assasin guild. Once the contract is opened, the random target gets spawned at the designed location and must be killed without any witnesses to gain cash. The assasin can also instantly kill anyone by slitting their throat when sneaking up on anyone from behind while having a dagger or short sword in their hand.

-Barbarian. (exclusive to Barbarians)
The Barbarian is known to be reckless and fearless, and the reputation is known across the lands. The barbarian will not be very welcome at noble courts, royal banquets and other formal or cultured occasions, and their dialogue options reflect their brutish nature. They are better at intimidation than any other class. They have a warcry ability that can cause lesser enemies to flee and increases their own attack for a short while. Their combat animations can be more brutish than the standard style, and they might only moan in pain when damaged very badly, they would show no signs of pain when receiving minor injuries despite it damaging them as much as others.

-Musician. (exclusive to bards.)
The musician can effectively use instruments and can perform on stages at taverns and at trade fairs. They can also perform at royal banquets and in throne rooms, and as such have a good way of gaining money and improving relations with everyone.

-Templar. (exclusive to crusaders.)
The templar can perform various tasks for temples that serve the nine divines. They can escort priests during a dangerous journey, be tasked with killing daedra worshippers and can be rewarded with a unique templar armor when performing enough of these tasks.

-Divine healer. (exclusive to healers.)
Divine healers gain additional healing capabilities, and can restore life to the dead, granting them full resurrection. Their healing skills are sought after, and various NPC's may approach them to ask the divine healer to cure a sick friend of relative. The healer can do this either for free or ask money for it.

-Lancer. (exclusive to knights)
The Lancer can enter jousting tournaments, and is capable of using a lance on horseback for a powerfull charge attack. Winning jousting tournaments can offer good rewards, including perhaps even the hand of a princess in marriage.

-Blessed by the divines. (exclusive to Healers, Crusaders, Monks and Pilgrims.)
Those blessed by the divines gain larger bonusses from blessings and they last a lot longer as well. They cannot gain blessings from daedric powers however, and cannot use daedric armor or weapons due to their tainted nature. At a higher level they might be capable of choosing between various powerfull divine items to compensate for their inability to use daedric weaponry or armor.

-Warrior of darkness. (exclusive to nightblades.)
Warriors of darkness do additional damage in darkness and can use shadowy Illusions to distract enemies in the darkness.

-Silver tongue. (exclusive to Rogues, Agents and Bards.)
These people are very good at talking themselves out of trouble, are good hagglers, merchants and are good at persuading and charming others.

-Scout. (exclusive to scouts.)
Scouts are faster on horseback than anyone, and they can read tracks on the ground. They can more often be employed to find ingredients, people or other things of interest in exchange for gold.

-Spellsword. (exclusive to spellsword.)
Combining sword and spell, the spellswords use their sword and not a free hand to cast their spells. They shoot destruction spells through their sword towards their enemies and raise their sword in the air as they cast defensive spells. They can also enchant their swords through spellcasting and do not require soulgems to charge enchanted swords but can recharge them with their own spellcasting instead.

-Burglar. (exclusive to thief.)
The burglar can use windows to enter houses and is more difficult to spot when sneaking. Being more skilled with lockpicks, they do not break as easily.

-Witchhunter. (exclusive to witchhunter.)
They are mistrusted by mages, although still employed by mages guilds to hunt down and destroy witches, warlocks and necromancers. Through training they have become more resistant to magic, and these resistances grow as they gain experience.

-Born for war. (exclusive to warriors, Barbarians, knights and Crusaders.)
Those born for war advance faster through melee weapon skills and unarmed combat and can learn to dodge just as well with weapons as with shields. Their movements look effortless and they tire far less from melee combat than anyone else.

Those are some really interesting perks for classes, and should inspire the developers, if they want to make each class unique. :goodjob:

You might be interested to take a look at what I have written http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1107940-perks-they-can-make-each-play-through-a-unique-experience/.

That was a very long quiz. I liked it though. I like many of the ideas though the alternatives are nice why can't we take some quizzes before the game actually brings us into char. creation. That would be very nice I think it would help alot to let us personalize and make the game what we want.

abolish levels completely.

quest for glory was an adventure/rpg hybrid series made by Sierra way back in the day. allowing you to choose to play as a fighter, magic user, or a thief - or become a paladin in later games - choosing a specific class influenced not just the different things that you could do over the course of the games, but also give you numerous different ways to solve puzzles through the main quests.

another thing it did that was pretty different from most other RPGs is that it didn't have levels. as you used your skills, you'd get better at them - if you climbed a lot then you'd get better at climbing, if you fought a lot and you'd get better at combat skills. as your skills went up, so did your STATS. the more you fought and did physical activities, the stronger you got, and the more damage you could take before keeling over. there were experience points, but these mostly served as a buffer for the game to decide what kinds of challenges to throw at you as far as enemies.

i'm suggesting taking this approach for TES. levels in their current form don't serve any purpose at all except to let you select which stat you want to raise by x amount of points and the kinds of enemies you face. if your stats would grow as organically as your skills, the game would be a lot more interesting and deter people having to min/max certain skills to get the best stat gains. fight a lot and build up your strength and endurance, pick locks and run and jump and build up your agility, read a lot and cast magic and build up intelligence, talk to people a lot and buy things and sell things and build up personality. keep experience points if you want to, and make them serve as a basic framework for what that character is able to face.

levels are an antiquated remnant of a time when the only way to determine a character's ability was through a basic numerical value, and if more games moved away from that, the future of RPGs would be a lot more interesting.

Well, they kept your character's total experience points as a sort of measure to decide how advanced your character is so that they know how to challenge you.

This can be done by looking at the current level of a character, and level-up sessions can be more rewarding than just adding some attribute points, which was a bad implementation in the first place.

They can be a more sought after event, as player could improve some aspects of their character in that phase.


The notion that player characters can advance their initial chosen class to improved versions was done in "Might and Magic" RPG series and IMHO is a great feature, so you start with a character class of Magician and then as you advance your character and meet some proper guilds, and advance your standing with them, you can get promoted to "Sorcerer" for instance, and acquire better perks for your class, and then you could advance your character and the guild standing and then promoted to "Warlock" for instance and gain even better class perks and so on...

That would be great. :goodjob:

There wasn't anything wrong in Oblivion... I didn't really get the whole leveling up idea...

But it would be cool if there was like some adrenaline rush perk/experience that... You start beatin some ass and you don't get tired...

Animal wise though... Animals will attack anything unless you knock the livin crap out of it.

Overall, I agree with the OP's assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of the various systems. As stated, a "partial" levelling approach with regional variations and occasional static placements appears to thoroughly beat either an "all static" or an "all levelled and scaled" one.

The idea of adjusting skill gain based on the difficulty of the task is a noteworthy addition, but should encompass more than just combat opponents: casting a high-level spell with less than a 100% chance of success should teach you more than rehashing the same old "training spell" for the 600th time. Skill gain rates should also be affected by their selection as Major, Minor, etc. It should be easier to increase a Major skill, but raising it should be no more beneficial to Attributes than any other skill.

I'd prefer "perks" to be "phased in", where you "learn" the perk, but have to "build" it by taking it multiple times to make it really effective. For example, Resistance to Magic could begin with your character gaining an initial 5% reduction in magica-based damage and negative effects, which is trivial. By re-selecting that perk each level, your resistance would slowly grow to 10%, 15%, etc. Either you would have a lot of seperate trivial "tricks" that wouldn't be all that effective, or you'd specialize your character and develop one or two "gimmicks" into truly remarkable abilities. The same could go for spells, where you'd learn the basic spell, but have to gradually "build" it over time and practice, with occasional paid training or quest rewards to speed the process. MW's spell failure idea was good in principle, but awkward in implementation. Allowing you to manually adjust the strength/duration/area of spells to either maximize results or minimize risk of failure would be much better, since failure would be controllable. OB's "automatic perks" that opened up the next level of spells or abilities at each 25 point increment was far too contrived and artificial for my liking, as well as taking away the entire concept of "risk versus reward", because there were no risks.

The concept of learning by doing is an inherent part of the TES system, and is one of its strong points. Tying Attribute gain to skill gain directly (GCD for MW, nGCD for OB) makes a lot more sense and is far less annoying than using a level-up screen and easily exploitable "multipliers", but reduces the freedom of the player to "shape" their character as they want to. MADD Leveler for MW uses a similar system as GCD/nGCD for most of your attribute gains, but still allows you to manually adjust three attributes by ONE point each. which allows you to "bend" the character's growth a little more toward your preferences (sadly, the mod also causes a small but noticable increase in level-up rate). A hybrid system seems like a better idea than a single straight-forward approach.

Condition of weapons and armor, and the cost and ability to repair them, could be a useful limiting factor, as in FO3. By using "repair parts" for the specific material, instead of self-destructing repair hammers, it would make maintainance of exotic and expensive items all but unaffordable for a low-level character. Sure, you can steal, loot, or buy that set of glass armor at L1 (even in good condition), but what are you going to do when it starts to wear down? The repairs (and even the spare parts to do it yourself, IF you have the skill) will cost you more than you can afford, and it's not worth a lot to sell in its pathetic condition.

Most importantly, the differences between a L1 and a L10 character are extreme under the current system, and by L30 there's not a lot in MW that could even make your character break a sweat, while an OB character would either be "god-like" or "wimpy" by that point, depending on how efficiently they levelled. I'd rather see skills "soft capped" at some point to make it exponentially harder to advance above a certain point, depending on whether they're Major, Minor, or Misc, and only see slight Attribute increases over the course of play. Limiting Attribute increases to only 3-5 TOTAL per level (one of them manually selected at level-up, the rest as a direct result of skill usage) would reduce the differences between a low and high level character, and make the game more "playable" for different styles of play, without worrying as much about "efficient levelling". Skills should be the main factor in deciding outcomes, with Attributes secondary and "somewhat tweakable" over time, which would make for a REAL difference in the various races and types, without totally ruling out the possibility of developing a "charismatic Orc" character. You SHOULD be able to do anything in the game world, in theory, but some things should be MUCH harder for some characters than others.

Yes, each map area in the game can have several virtual height maps that define the minimum and maximum level for several factors in those maps.

Each height map is created by plasma a fractal formula that is a normal way to make height maps, and is used in several landscape generation programs, but here we want to use those height maps for other reasons.

Those formulas let us define the exact height of several places, and then the engine fills the other areas with semi-random connected height values in a way that the predefined height values are fitted perfectly to the surface height of the whole map, so if a point is near one of the predefined points, then it's height value is near the height value of the predefined point, but it might be a bit lower or upper, and different predefined points would affect their surrounding height map a bit, but the most important factor is the random seed of the whole map.

This way, we can have two virtual height maps that define the minimum and maximum possible level of monsters in each area of the game world, and we can have two virtual height maps that define minimum and maximum level of the loot found on those monsters, or items found on shops and so on...

We can have the height maps that show the player character's fame and infamy in the game world, or the influence of different guilds and faction over the game world area, or the density of different character races over the landscape to aid the automatic spawners of random population, or the different monster type density to define areas that spawn animal more than daedra and so on...

Those virtual height map that define the minimum and the maximum of possible level of spawned monsters, are affected by player level, so if the player level did not affect the spawned monster level in a place, then the level of the monster would be defined by a probability of a normal bell shape within those limits, but if the effect of the player level was added, then the bell shape would lean toward the player level, so if the player level is below the middle of the maximum and minimum level value of the place, then the probability bell shape would lean to lower values, and if the player level is above the middle point, then the bell shape would lean toward higher values.

This would affect the probable level of monsters in an area, and the monsters and items could be picked from random lists that are affected by the difficulty level calculated from this formula.

The great feature of those virtual height maps are that they can be changed in the real time as a script can define or change the value of a point on the map and the surrounding height map would change shape to embrace the change of the value in that point, so if a battle happens in an area, then a script can raise the maximum difficulty level of a point on the middle of that place, and the whole area would have a higher danger level, and after the battle, the script can remove the change on that point and revert the area to the previous state, and so on...

Or if the player does a good deed for a faction in an area, then a script can raise the virtual height map representing his reputation in the faction on that place and it would affect the surrounding area as well, and this formula can be used in a lot of different aspects of the game.


Yes, each usage of any skill, should raise the player character's experience in that skill by a defined value that depends on the difficulty of the deed done, so a character with low skill of lock picking can pick a hard lock then he should have a good boost in his lock picking experience points, but if a skilled thief picks an easy lock, then it would not affect his lock picking experience that much.

This trend should be for all the skill usages, so for instance we should have potions that are easy to make and elixirs that are hard to make and those affect the alchemy skill differently, and so on...


If the active perks (or spells) have effects that depend of the level of their respective skill, then those gradual raise of their effectiveness would show as the character gets better in that skill, so for instance each damage dealing spell of a school of magic deals a damage like this:

Fire Bolt: Damage=(1d3)+10sk[10-30]

Which means, if your destruction magic is 10 or below then your "Fire Bolt" spell would deal 1d3 or (1-3) damage, and if your destruction magic is 30 or above then your "Fire Bolt" would deal 1d3+10 or (11-13) damage, and if your destruction magic is 25 then your "Fire Bolt" would deal 1d3+(25-10)*10/(30-10) = 1d3+15*10/20 = 1d3+7 = (8-10).

Fire Ball: Damage=(2d6)+18sk[20-50], Radius=1+3sk[20-50]

Which means, if your destruction magic is 20 or below then your "Fire Ball" spell would deal 2d6 or (2-12) damage, and if your destruction magic is 50 or above then your "Fire Ball" would deal 2d6+18 or (20-30) damage, and if your destruction magic is 25 then your "Fire Ball" would deal 2d6+(25-20)*18/(50-20) = 2d6+5*18/30 = 2d6+3 = (5-15).

And the radius of area effect of "Fire Ball" would be 1ft at skill level of 20 or below and 4ft at level 50 or above and somewhere in between when skill level is between 20 to 50.


Yes, I support this idea and my Oblivion mod, "Pure Immersion" acted exactly like that, so your attributes raised dynamically as your skill improved, and in the level-up sessions you could raise three of your attributes by just one point.

You could set a difficulty value that defined the amount of attribute raise as your skills advanced, so in lower difficulty value, your attributes raised faster, and in higher difficulty values, your attributes raised slower.

Here I suggested that your attributes do not raise with skill advancement, or their growth should be really slow, but in level-up sessions you could raise one, or two attributes by one point, thus your attributes are really hard to change in the course of the game, and they would define the rate that you could raise the skills that they govern, and also define how much you could get promotion in their governed skills and raise their soft caps.


Yes, that's a great idea, but I think we should make it a bit easier, and let people repair items with their similar items for a full effect, or with their parts and ingredients for a smaller effect, like repairing adamantum shields with adamantum ores, and so on...

And they should be able to disintegrate adamantum boots into adamantum ores in front of the forges and the like.


Just like I said above, I support this idea, we should be able to do anything, but some goals should be relatively easier than other goals, so if you want to reach a specific goal, you should generate a proper character for that goal, to make life easier for yourself.

Progressive classes.
Why should a newbie character have a fully defined class of character, before you have done anything at all?

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Endurance:
-1-Wanderer
-1-1-Adventurer
-1-1-1-Tomb Raider
-1-1-2-Seeker
-1-2-Pilgrim
-1-2-1-Monk
-1-2-2-Daedra Worshipper
-1-3-Acrobat?

Strength:
-2-Warrior
-2-1-Knight
-2-1-1-Crusader
-2-1-2-Death Knight
-2-2-Mercenary
-2-2-1-Gladiator
-2-2-2-Bounty Hunter
-2-3-Barbarian?

Speed:
-3-Scout
-3-1-Agent
-3-1-1-Assassin
-3-1-2-Spy
-3-2-Archer
-3-2-1-Ranger
-3-2-1-Hunter

Agility:
-4-Thief
-4-1-Robber
-4-1-1-Bandit
-4-1-2-Raider
-4-2-Swashbuckler
-4-2-1-Duelist
-4-2-2-Rogue

Will Power:
-5-Healer
-5-1-Cleric
-5-1-1-Priest
-5-1-2-Lich
-5-2-Alchemist
-5-2-1-Druid
-5-2-2-Shaman

Intelligence:
-6-Mage
-6-1-Sorcerer
-6-1-1-Wizard
-6-1-2-Warlock
-6-2-Conjurer
-6-2-1-Summoner
-6-2-2-Necromancer

Personality:
-7-Bard
-7-1-Courier
-7-1-1-Minister
-7-1-2-Night Blade
-7-2-Spell Sword
-7-2-1-Battle Mage
-7-2-2-Witch Hunter

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Well, this post, and my own experience with Might and Magic series, gave me the idea of progressive development of character class, so a newbie character starts with a background, which acts as a base for his future initial class development, and a birth sign, a weapon of choice, and the like to give him enough initial boost and useful perks to aid him through the game.

But later in the game, players can join the factions that they like and develop a role for themselves, in the game world, and that would define their class(es), just like the real world, as no one would start his like as a pre-destined doctor, or grocery man.

The initial background of the characters would make it easier for them to join a specific faction, but would not prevent them from joining other factions that suit their character's proficiency with different skills, and their attributes.

A background is like the initial level of a class, so if you have a scout background, then you would have the scout perk(s), and can instantly join its respective guild, faction or agency, or any other type of group that teaches the player in that branch of classes, so for instance a guild needs some scouts for their affairs, and the instance they see any character with scout background they would hire them without any hesitation.

But other characters have to find a way into the place, and have to have the attributes and skills that would satisfy the needs of the place.

When joined the guild, players would be sent on errands that require them to act as scouts, until they show their true worth to their faction, and meet the attribute and skill requirement for their next level of promotion, i.e. to become an agent.

But when they get promoted to an agent, they would instantly get trained to become one, and get updated perks that come with being an agent.

If they had joined another faction, they could become an archer in their next promotion, and get its perks instead.

Anyways, when you have shown your worth as a skillful agent, and developed a reputation in certain circles, some other freelance agent jobs might present themselves for you, from other places than your current joined faction(s), until you meet the requirements for your next promotion, i.e. to become a spy, after that you might be directed to another group, with a recommendation in hand so that you can join them as a professional spy.

On the other hand, if while attending your missions, you have shown yourself as a cold blooded killer that would kill people when there was no need, and reported back with the facts, then you might get a surprise(?) meeting and be offered another profession by another agency, and you are free to join any of the new opportunities.

But after you have joined any of them, you would get the initial lessons, and acquire some new upgraded perks, but would lose the opportunity to join the other faction, so you either become a professional spy or a skilled assassin.

Each promotion on your class(es), or your initial background would raise the soft cap of some of your skills, and/or speed up the rate of progression in those skills.

And you would gain access to expert teachers in those factions that would teach you new perks for your skills that are required for the faction.

You can join any faction that you can meet their requirements and also can find your way in, (as you might have ruined your chances with them because of your previous choices).

But advancing in them would require hard work and development of your character to meet the requirement for the next promotions and the fact that the character attributes cannot be changed a lot in the course of the game, would define if you can actually join a faction and if so, how many promotions you could get in them, and those promotions would define the soft cap over your skills, and the teachers, perks and other luxuries that you can get access to.

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But let's start from the beginning:

At the start of the game, after you reach the phase that you can define your initial character's characteristics, instead of choosing (or creating) a class for yourself, you are asked about your character's background, which in effect would define an initial basic class for your character and your "Specialization", and a perk or two, to aid you a bit.

After that you are asked about a preferred weapon of choice, and get a boost in that skill, and after defining your birth sign and the like, you are presented with the list of your skills, and then you can tweak them within a range, which is defined by your previous choices, including the race.

So you could increase or decrease your skill levels within those ranges by steps of 5 levels, but the final sum of the skills should be a specific number.

After that phase, when you accepted the resulting character, your initial attributes would be calculated depending on your skill levels, and you would be granted, "Apprenticeship", and "Journeyman ship" on skills that pass the level 25 and 50 respectively, and you start your carrier after that.

And your background would give you a starting basic class, so for instance if you have chosen the background:

"As the third son/daughter of an impoverished nobleman, I had joined the army, and have got a bit of experience as a warrior, but decided to leave it to test myself with new challenges..."

This background would give you the initial class of warrior, and would open the way for you to become a "Knight" in the future.

See, that Necromancy is after the second promotion of the initial class of mage, but you could learn necromancy spells and cast them before that if you could find the teachers that would teach you how to, but reaching the Necromancy promotion would grant you perks that would greatly boost your powers as a necromancer, so it would be an important milestone in the carrier of any wannabe necromancer.

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OK, this is the bare bone of the progressive class system, that I have developed in my visions for a future TES game, and hope to see something like that.

Should I make a poll for this, and what should be the choices?

Yes learning by doing is essential and mostly work nice. One of the developers of Daggerfall said they was annoyed of games where the best way to raise lock picking was to kill monsters.
Actually no need to add points then levelling up, trainers work just as well.

Think equipment condition would work better to level npc without giving them high level equipment, yes it might help making high level equipment less useful however the player would simply carry a high and low level weapon and reserve the high level one to hard enemies, hunting rifle+ Lincolns repeater in FO3.

A level 20 character in Morrowind or Daggerfall is pretty overpowered, as few have higher level than you and you have top level equipment. Oblivion tried to solve this by unlimited level on boss enemies.
Instead of limiting attributes and skills I’m more in favour of limiting health, as any character becomes a tank at high levels if they raise their endurance early. As you have virtually unlimited access to healing potions and spells an enemy who uses long time killing you is pretty harmless. Here Oblivions level 40 monsters fail as they are not very dangerous they just takes a long time to kill. If you can fight them one it’s only takes time.
Limiting health to a multiplier of starting endurance like 5 or 6, up to this point it raise normally, afterwards you only get 1-2 hp level, this would keep you killable at high levels

Training could be limited by requiring you to advance that skill by one point "the hard way" before you can buy another point of training. The trainer could say something such as "You need to practice what you've been taught before I can teach you anything else."

Carrying two weapons isn't anything new, I did that with several characters in both MW and OB, for a number of different reasons (for example: one was enchanted, and I didn't want to waste spell charges just to kill rats and kwama foragers). While it's a good idea to reduce the obvious "exploits" in the game, it's sometimes better to leave in a few of the less game-breaking ones, as long as they "make sense" from a realism perspective, because it gives the "power gamers" something to do. If the game uses combat skills for something better than just nerfing damage, and narrows the gap in quality between the weapon types to something more reasonable, the use of a top quality weapon still won't be enough to save an unskilled character from being annihilated by a high-level opponent, so it would be of some use, but not extreme. The players who just want to go on a killing binge will quickly wear out the high-end item, while the more cautious players will conserve it and treat it as a rare and expensive artifact, as it should be. I don't see a problem with it.

Good point about health; the rate of health gain in all of the games was ridiculous. A high level character should be obviously stronger and tougher, but not close to invincible. The drastic growth rate in Hitpoints was the biggest underlying cause of the whole levelling and scaling problem, because anything that was "survivable" by a low level character wasn't even worth drawing a main weapon for by mid level, and was effectively "inconsequential" at high levels.

Good idea about practice requirements, it would make training a slower process and you have to work for it.
Agree with you that exploits is no big problem in a single player game as long as they are not totally overpowering and keep them so obscure they are out of easy range of clueless people who use them and complain that the game is too easy. This should work if balanced correctly, was mostly thinking of the huge difference in damage between high and low end weapons in Morrowind/ Oblivion, and a single hit to kill weapon would break down slowly

I’m nerfing endurance on current Oblivion character now, did it in Fallout 3 to on last character and found it much more exciting. Level 25 pure mage, 150 hp, 100% weakness to magic, no armor, normal difficulty, absolutely playable can go days between reloads but you have to be more alert and watch your back than with 350 hp.