LOL at people that still don't understand you don't need anything. Guns make energy weapons redundant. Heavy armor makes lighter armors redundant. Only need one way to do something, right?

However this is suppose to be an RPG, you know, for role players. Not a meta game action adventure that some folks want to turn this into.

If you can't refute the fact that RPGs are about options, you have no argument.

Fact remains traits were great gameplay and role play wise, just like with all options.

Don't like it, don't use it.

No one is arguing against options.

I merely want what options I have to actually mean something.

Morrowind having a million weapon types didn't mean anything, since every melee weapon played exactly the same. Oblivion and skyrim offered far more actual options, despite having a lower weapon type count, because they put far more effort into each weapon type playing differently.

... You lost the argument at need.

Traits had meaning, obviously you never even played NV, or Oblivion for that matter.

Always hilarious to see the non role players wanting to cut stuff because they never used it.

The best magic enchant is from the sigil stones at 20% in Oblivion. Temporary spells to provide resist effects were so costly on magicka they weren't worth it; enchants were superior. If you used enchanting alone, you would need at least three pieces of armor enchanted with Sigil stones + the Mundane ring to hit 100%. This is hardly "easy-peasy," especially considering all of this doesn't appear until you hit level 20+.

And that's hardly a strawman, it's effectively the same. It's also blatantly untrue. A Ballistic Fist for example with Heavy Handed is going to be enough to oneshot a Cazador with VATS, whereas without would rely on a luck factor. Keep in mind this is an enemy that attacks in swarms and attacks fast with a pretty effective poison, so oneshotting these things consistently is quite the assist. Meanwhile, not taking Heavy Handed and attempting to oneshot a Deathclaw is only doable by relying on that luck and pumping up crit damage, but completely non-feasible with Heavy Handed. There are numerous occassions in the game where enemies will drop dead sooner or slower because you chose to take the trait or not. All of these differences are made more dramatic once VATS isn't being used or when the difficulty is ramped up to Very Hard.

And that's one trait. You will never cancel out the effects of Trigger Discipline or Fast Shot.

>He doesn't know how to exploit the easily exploitable spellmaking system to get 1000000000 second effects with almost zero cost.

No, its nowhere near the same. One, yours, implies there is never a need to get better weapons, as all weapon damage is fine. The other, mine, implies that most end game weaponry was so roughly equal to each other the choices didn't matter.

Apples vs oranges my friend.

>Very hard
>Literally artificial difficulty the setting
Not really an argument for anything besides how poorly done difficulty settings in Bethesda games are.

>Not using VATS
>Not using the thing you are supposed to use in combat
Well OFC its harder then, that's like saying melee combat in Skyrim is harder if you don't wear armor...... well ofc it is, its designed around the idea that you would be. Yeah, the game is going to be harder if you don't play it they way it was intended to be.

Never used the word need.

Using a gun or an energy weapon that in the end does the same thing (kills/incapacitates) is redundant, therefore we should only have one weapon.

What's the point in doing damage if we're going to beat the game anyways?

The game should instantly go straight to the ending, the rest of it is redundant.

So true. Why do we even need games? Games should be cut from... media options.

1) You're using an admitted exploit and then claiming an exploit is proof the entirety of the birthsign system is faulty? (inb4 "dun strawman me" with a lazy claim that standing stones would be an excellent replacement while providing no arguments or explanations as to how or why they'd work) Even then, how on earth are you going to achieve this exploit by level 5, as you initially stated?

2) Yeah, it kind of is an argument. Hell, you've made no argument. You've made a subjective observation that it's "artificial difficulty" according to you while not acknowledging it's a game mechanic. If you think damage increases don't matter enough? Congrats, there's this nice little difficulty feature that will make each and every point of damage more important.

3) No. No no no no no. If you think VATS is supposed to be spammed to oblivion, again I wonder if you've played Vegas. Spamming VATS is an easy way to get yourself killed, as you surrender any and all dodge capabilities in order to kill enemies slower, ensuring only that you definitely won't miss. There's a strategic time and place for VATS, nor is it even something you can spam to oblivion in many cases, even if you wanted to. Many builds simply won't be able to, and in the case of being swarmed by multiple enemies for example, a melee character with Super Slam is going to want to exploit it by swinging as much as possible and as fast as possible, something that VATS would hinder.

Not really, both normal guns and energy weapons have various factors that make each one more useful in different situations then the other.

I actually am a roleplayer, very much so. However, one is not roleplaying when their actions have no effect on the game world. One cannot roleplayer a hunter in skyrim, no matter how much time you spend out in the wilds hunting and killing dear, and selling their meat, as you can never open your own shop, or have ay of the NPCs recognize you as an actual hunter., you will always be the dragonborn and a merc to the game. And that is not roleplaying, that is merely pretending.

And no, my logic is we need lots of stuff that plays different rather then a whole bunch of things that play exactly the same.

>spamming VATS will get you killed
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Im sorry Longknife, but that's just too funny. I think I am going to have to take a screenshot of that and save it.

Its neigh impossible to die in both Fo3 or NV while in VATs. You dont NEED to dodge anything in either game as you have so much HP, even at a low endurance, it doesn't matter.

Nope.

And nope, clearly you're not a role player, otherwise you wouldn't constantly harp about how you min max and action game to get the best of everything. Otherwise why would you be bringing up the fact that there are better or other ways to do these things? Of course there are, this is an RPG. Clearly shows you don't get RPing.

Nope, your logic is beyond flawed and fits right into the "I didn't use it, nobody needs it" category. Just because you meta game doesn't mean everybody else does.

Fredward made this pretty clear on page 1.

I don't min/max or action game to get the best of everything. I never even touch crafting of any kind, be it smithing, enchanting, or alchemy, on most of my Skyrim characters simply becuase its not part of my character role.

I only point out how its possible to do so, and why one should not be able to do so.

Everything you say says otherwise. If you RPed, you'd understand RP. You'd then understand that options are options and you wouldn't be arguing for the cutting of all overlapping features/items/mechanics.

But you and I know the truth, that if Beth announced Traits tomorrow you'd 180.

When have I ever said anything about min/maxing my own characters?

The answer is never, pointing out that it is possible to do so does not mean one does it themselves.

I haven't argued for cutting any of them, merely changing them to something less ass.

F3 didn't have traits, therefor you are against them.

If you RPed you would have shown some sort of evidence that you do (with what you say). Everything you say says otherwise. You pick the "best" of everything because anything else is "redundant." Yeah, that's not role playing.

Traits, again worked fine and were unique and great OPTIONS for role players.

I'm not against traits at all. I am against thier current implimentation.

Again, I never mentioned anything about picking the best things for myself. So I don't see how that reflects on my personal choices in any way.

They didn't work fine though, thats the problem, and that is why I would like to see them returned in a less poorly made fashion, something more akin to types of implants, or some Fallout equivilent to Skyrim's standing stones.

Also, didn't you say before that you were ignoring me? As well was Worms, or w/e his name was? What happened to that?

... Again, you lost the "argument" at need. You don't understand RPing.

Again, I never mentioned the word need

I hope you're wrong. I want my traits for fragile limbs that break easily. Small Frame ftw!

I'm not, I am actually trying to offer ways to make what were traits mean a whole lot more in the end by making them far more malleable and customizable over the course of the game, so players can get far more out of them.

But I can't get a word in edge wise since every other post I make get spammed with accusations of not being for RP, and nothing else.

They were fine and meant a whole lot as is. Every RPer knew this. But you didn't like it because Beth didn't make them.

Anyways, I would like to see traits be turned into something like implants.

They would have positive and negative aspects, like traits do now, but over the course of the game the player could find new updates to those implants, increasing their bonuses, and lowering their negatives(though never negating them).

Whats more, is that there could be several additional powers for those implants, each with their own positives and negatives, that could be found alongside the normal upgrades. And while there would be several additional power for each trait-plant, you could only ever have one of them at a time, forcing you to pick and chose which way the trait-plant adapts.

In short, just a system to make them more malleable and dynamic over the course of the game, rather then something you pick at the beginning and forget about before you reach half-way.

Traits were generally fine. Their shortcomings were largely due to how the overall systems and gameplay worked. For example, there was that one that reduced accuracy by 20% while increasing firerate by 20%; neither of which I never noticed in any tangible way. +/-20% would've done a good deal if accuracy ever was an issue. Too subtle all across the board. This isn't fixed through making them some sort of "Skyrim systems" or cutting them out altogether, but designing them to have more profound effects and designing the gameplay in a way that these sorts of mechanical alterations mean something to the player.

But why?

Implants are implants. They can exist or not exist independent of traits. The traits are supposed to be unique inherent characteristics and quirks of the PC, for better and worse, that affect his/her approach to the world and its situations (not necessarily each and every, but...). They serve a thematically different purpose from implants than are just artificial modifications.

Because, as you mentioned in your own post, and as Talonfire did in his, traits didn't really mean anything in NV, because they were built for the older Fallout games were things like accuracy was RNG based. This isn't, and wont be, the case in the modern Fallout games, ever, because its fundamentally counter to the new gameplay style.

Also, with implants as they were in NV are likely going the way of the dodo bird, since SPECIAL increases from things like Intense training seem to have been cut. We can save the gameplay mechanics of both features, while making both far more complex and dynamic then there were before.

Traits meant something for me. I got more action points, and faster reload/draw speed with Small Frame, at the price of some weak bones that broke easily (which was tough in hardcoe).