But what about when your charm runs out? Will they just completely ignore the fact that you just charmed them or will they run straight to the guards?

It could be explained by a sudden influx of serotonin

They would be charmed and love you. They wouldn't care.

Yeah, I agree sort of. Charm spells should go unnoticed ONLY to the person being charmed, because after all they are being charmed, any guards around should react, but random NPCs who wouldn't care shouldn't react. I don't feel like a shield spell should be illegal. But invisibility and chameleon should cause the guards to approach you and follow you closely.

Having it be illegal would make sense, but what would be the best way to determine if you get caught? I don't think it should be with stealth; crouching in the shadows and throwing the spell at their back doesn't seem like the most fitting way to use persuasion magic to me. Maybe other people could notice it, but not the person you're charming, unless their illusion skill or their level is high enough that they'd recognize what you're doing or resist it.

The problem is this runs the risk of making charm spells useless.

If I can get arrested for using charm, I'll be more likely to just enchant a ring that raises my speechcraft [or insert personality skill here] and switch to that when needed, ignoring charm magic altogether.

Charm and command spells are mind-altering effects, and should be minor crimes if a guard is watching. The person being charmed wouldn't know and other relatively normal responsibility level NPCs shouldn't mind, but coercing someone through magic is more hostile then speechcraft, as it isn't simple argument but messing with their brain.

It might make speechcraft more valuable but as it is speechcraft is mostly worthless in comparison. You get multiple spell types with more applications then any other school by choosing illusion while with speechcraft all you can do is verbally convince people more easily.

Well if Speechcraft is merged with Mercantile, the problem is solved.

The same needs to happen with lockpicking (another worthless skill thanks to Open). Merging with sneak works for me.

It's confusing why it wouldn't be illegal. It doesn't make sense that the person you're charming would call a guard, but someone witnessing it could have the option depending on their disposition towards you and how lawful the character is.

Whenever I cast charm on people in OB, I didn't imagine that my character was standing there in front of the persona waving their arms around while shouting incantations. I figured being a spell of illusion that it was rather subtle, that I just touch them on the arm or shoulder. I wouldn't think that a guard standing nearby would even take notice of the gesture. Now as far as it being illegal if they did know what I was doing, I don't know. It's unethical certainly to use magic to bend someone to your will, but the entire school is devoted to manipulating the minds of others. There was that one mage's guild quest where they gave you some charm scrolls (or a staff, I can't remember) and told you to use them on someone, so the mages apparently don't care.

You: Cast charm spell on shopkeeper.

Guard: "Stop criminal scum!"

Guard to Shopkeeper: "Do you want to press charges?"

Shopkeeper: "Naaaaawww. . . he's niiiiice."


In all seriousness I like the idea of a perk that makes spellcasting more subtle. The main problem and answer to the OP is that the AI wasn't programmed to interact with most of the non direct damage spells. If the AI were corrected they could add all sorts of cool perks related to the casting of the spells, and not just the spells being cast.

Your not charming them your just showing them how sixy your blubber is. :hubbahubba:

ONLY IF someone in the immediate vicintiy recognizes it as a charm spell ( and NOT the person it is being used on). I think it should be beyond the capacity of any joe average guard who is not a battle mage or the like, . . . and we probably won't see any imperial battlemages in Skyrim.

The tell tale glow is only to let the player know his target is still under his power. Just as you can still see a vague blurred version of yourself, but NPCs cannot see you at all. With any well cast charm spell, observers should not be able to spot what you have done unless they are very skilled at detecting such things. Charming the count in front of the court mage could be a problem, but not charming him in front of Hild the guard.

It can have uses, in the hands of a powerful Thaumaturge. I had a charm spell powerful enough to calm and charm Dremora Lords into. . . well, not pleasant conversation, but at least minimal, haughty conversation that didn't involve them attacking. Lol .

"Kneel Churl!". Yes, those dremora sure are eloquent fellows lol.

Lol. Their usual commentary ran thus: "Be Quick about it Mortal!" I actually was pleased to see the devs had at least given them dialogue in the event that someone managed to charm them into conversing.

I can see how you arrived at that conclusion, OP, but please consider this:

A charm spell is an Out Of Combat spell - for getting more information out of a npc, for getting a better price from a shopkeeper. Making it a outright crime would kind of render it useless, or at least impractical.

I can understand if you try to charm-spell an expert mage who could understand what it was and the intent behind it, if they become hostile, but not unless.


As for buffing yourself in public being illegal - ok, consider this. You're walking through town, you've accepted a quest to clear out a house that's infested with mud crabs. You buff yourself for extra health - and get promptly assailed by "STOP! YOU'VE VIOLATED THE LAW! YOUR STOLEN GOODS ARE NOW FORFEIT!"


As with most people who propose new laws, these haven't been thought through very well.

If you drugged someone with a chemical that would alter their emotions to use it to your own advantage, would that be legal?

Think drink spiking.

But there's also a school devoted entirely to blowing things up. Mages will teach you things that are not very legal to use against civilians, just as fighters will teach you about that there are some living beings you shouldn't hit with axes. In that particular quest in Oblivion, you were given charm spells because the person you are trying to charm was a thief who stole from the guild. The Mage's guild is actually a political body in the Empire, and maintains its own guards (the battlemages) who are free to dispense judgment.

I'm not sure how much it would solve, but wouldn't it be possible to just have a different action for the charm spell? Say just subtle flick of the hand or something.

Doesn't matter. I'll just charm the guard trying to arrest me.

It should definitely be a minor crime, and detection should be based on the Illusion skill and closeness/line of sight of observers.

Even if unnoticed, the charmed person should realize they were charmed after the fact and lower their disposition accordingly. If this occurs while in conversation with you (since conversations are real time now), and if it drops below a certain level (e.g. 30), then they should accuse you of charming them and then it's up to your Speechcraft to talk your way out of it.

You shouldn't be able to charm them again because they should be wary of it a second time.

Impractical, maybe. The same way that murdering your way into the Redoran vaults in Morrowind was impractical.

Using a Charm spell on someone all alone, or with no one looking, or with people to busy to notice- that would probably be overlooked as just a gesture in conversation. But if you shoot a Charm-on-target spell at someone in front of a guard captain, naturally he's going to ask "the hell are you doing?" It's about being subtle.

Also, placing buffs on yourself on a public place wouldn't be outright illegal. It would simply place you under suspicion. The same if you draw your weapon in a tavern, tail someone in sneak mode, and so on.

If you were to cast a buff in a training area or a combat situation, it would just be common sense and no one would pay any mind.

Buffing yourself in public should be legal but suspicious depending on the buff. Invisibility and chameleon are pretty suspicious in my opinion.

You can compare the situation to walking around wearing a mask in public. It's not illegal but people sure are going to pay more attention to you.