I always thought it would be kind of funny to throw a bunch of FPS players into a combat zone and watch them run back and forth like shooting gallery ducks and jump up and down like the floor was made of lava. This probably isn't going to be a problem in Brink. It only really happens in games where you're super agile like Halo, or very recently Section 8: Prejudice. Seriously, there are so many super cheap tactics in that game. Hopefully Brink won't have any problems with: turret spamming, people using healing abilities way too effectively on themselves, bunny hopping, overpowered ammo types etc.

Yes, you're quite right, the general audience always has been ignorant and bad.
None of these are "cheap".

If anyone uses any of these to frag me they outplayed me or my team.
Getting spawn trapped is not the other teams fault, it's your own.

Camping as is accepted by your average tard is "not moving" when it should be used to describe someone not moving in a low traffic, unexpected area and people need to realize camping can turn into holding a position if you do it effectively enough.
Holding a position the other team wants shouldn't be described in a generally accepted negative fashion. It should be praised that you can hold off a numerically superior enemy with better positioning.

The rest don't even bear worth bringing up.

You aren't owed a win or a frag, it's player vs player.

Camping isn't cheap, it's just a [censored]bag tactic. Unless they are specifically exploiting the geometry at an unfair vantage point.

Another one just for the record...

Quake hardly invented camping. That's just silly. You could play games against strangers via BBS gaming and find campers back in the days of Wolfenstein 3D. It was more effective in Doom though - you had weapon campers who would stand next to the BFG or Rocket Launcher spawn points and kill anyone who came near to make sure nobody else got "their weapon." If you're the person who said Quake invented it, please do something unpleasant to yourself for such foolishness.

Also, strafing certainly isn't cheap in any way. It's been in FPS games since, again, Wolfenstein 3D at least. If it was legitimate and fair then, how can it be anything less now?

Strongsiding actually does work in Halo, I cant imagine it would work too well in any other game. In halo 4 br shots will kill you if the last is to the head, so in a situation where you are losing a br battle you strongside away into cover and either call your team mates, recharge your shield and carry on fighting or just escape.

I agree with most of your points though, strafing is out and out skill, there is no way a player, even a newb can have a problem when they are out strafed.

i really hate a camper thats also a sniper. you know the ones i mean. they find a spot on a map and just sit there waiting. if they get killed they just return back to the same spot on the map again and do the same thing again. and this is why i will enjoy brink because you will not get that happening as much in it.

I love those people, unless they are good then its just a free kill lol. Im yet to play a shooter were players dont attempt to find a nice spot on a map and camp there for kills. I think its just part of the newby thought process, you want to get kills, cause thats what shooters are all about, you notice if you sit in spot x players tend to run past without looking in your direction, you also notice this gives you a chance to nade then finish them off, you really enjoy getting a few kills so you rinse and repeat.
Ive played at the highest European level for competitive halo and I've done my fair shair of camping when I was first learning fps's years ago. I think itll certainly happen on brink, but im hoping that the gameplay splash damage have created will make it less likely than in some games, COD for instance.

I'll start with a slight correction. "Gandhi Hop" is the correct name, and it comes from Halo 2, which included crouching mid-air (usually multiple times). Gandhi, a professional Halo player, got popular and began his professional video game "career" during Halo 2. Not a big deal, just thought I'd clarify. Secondly, the only things in that list that should be considered cheap are spawn camping and regular camping. However, there is a difference between camping, and staying in an area for strategic reasons for a certain period of time. Since Halo has been mentioned several times, I will use that as an example. Most good players remember the spawn times for weapons on the maps which are used during tournament play. Getting there a bit early (meaning before the weapon spawns) and waiting/guarding the location isn't what I'd consider camping.

I would define camping as sitting in one location and it being your "tactic" in attempt to do better than other players. The guy up on the hill that has been sniping all game is camping. Even more annoying, camping is the guy sitting in a random corner with a shotgun shooting people in the back as they run by just because he can. All of the other things mentioned are generally accompanied with a sense of skill or at the very least an understanding of how to better your play through use in a way that is fair. Equally skilled players will have these ideas of competitive play in the back of their minds and know how to counter them. Sometimes it's simply adjusting your aim, or doing the same thing right after the enemy has to throw THEM off. However, their are exceptions. Such as the Worm Glitch in BF2: MC (Xbox 360).

edit: Grammar...

Agree with that definition of camping, I should of said that lol, If you are blocking off a route that you have noticed the enemy like to take, this is not camping or I suppose its positive camping. Whereas if you find a nice room that you can hide behind a desk in and every now and then a person comes in to look out the window, then you shotgun him in the back and go back to the desk, meanwhile your teammates are trying to capture a flag then you are camping.
Bunny hopping was around long before ghandi started playing even CE though, I remember first hearing the term when I started playing CS in 1999.

i really struggle to see where the fun is in just getting kill stats for yourself. i would far more prefer to be running around getting in amongst the action and get killed in the process than just staring down a scope for hours. well the maps are really tight so you wont be able to find somewhere that nobody can shoot back at you with an automatic weapon. and you can only one shot kill a 1st level light body character if your a light body with a heavy sniper rifle. so heavy's will spot you and wipe you out with there heavy weapons.

Yes, it was definitely around before then. I was simply clarifying that portion of the original post. I don't even remember when I started playing CS. It wasn't even called CS back then, but my point being that it was used during that time as well. It's the only PC FPS that I invested a good amount of time in, and I did so at a lan center. With that said, from my perspective bunny hopping purely for the advantage it brings into killing other players is generally more popular in games where your aim is barely, or not at all, affected by jumping. This usually points to Halo as it's the most popular console game that doesn't incorporate accuracy difference depending on a player's stance (excluding Halo: Reach). Once again, CS is the only FPS game I've ever really played on the PC, so I could be wrong.

and counter-strike is still the daddy.

That has to be one of the worst, and uniformed, things I've read in quite some time. Kudos, Twisted.

You struggle to see where one person enjoys sniping because you don't enjoy it. As with most of the so called "cheap tactics" the basic idea is simply that you enjoy your playstyle and believe the other guy ruins your playstyle therefore it's cheap.

As I said earlier, Bunnyhopping, Drop shotting (dolphin diving), and strafing only touch the edge of cheapness when the game mechanics allow the behavior to exploit something that was not intended.
Being able to hop around and gain speed of movement and not suffer accuracy drawbacks is a game flaw, the action itself is fine.
Dropping to the dirt and suddenly having the accuracy bonus of being prone (as well as temp invulnerability in some games as you drop) is a game flaw, the action is basic military tactics 101 stuff.
Running back and forth spraying bullets accurately 150m across the map at the sniper hiding in the window because you don't suffer an accuracy penalty for moving (or gain the benefit of a bad random spray program) is a game flaw, the tactic is fine.

Spawn Camping is cheap, yes as someone else said it's "their fault" if they get camped but if you think that makes it any less cheap to [censored] a bunch of poor players as they hop out of their spawn one by one that's pretty shameful.

Camping is an all encompassing word of the behavior of setting up shop in a single location, the problem is that with some of the more negatively viewed behaviors you can't really tell if he was "camping in a cheap way" or if you just got killed like a fool unless it happens repeatedly, and even then you have to question whether or not his location is active and benefiting his team.

I see far to many people rage on "camping" because a guy stopped moving for a few seconds, stepped into a corner and shot his persuer in the back as he came through the door, or the guy sitting facing away from the action because he's covering his teams ass from flankers, or the sniper who finds an advantageous position and makes the most of it.

If you want to be mad at the guy who was lying under the table with a shotgun and shot you in the legs the last four times you walked into a room, be mad, but stop walking into the room you moron.

i would have said that was a fair comment to make until you called me a moron and guessing that i would lack any intellegence to know that a certain location on a map was a hot spot for getting sniped. so i'll finish by saying that you just sound like a total pie of a guy and i hope i bump into you on a brink map so that we can sort out our differences.

They're all legitimate tactics

I only hate spawn camping and quick scoping (the later I can do but think is cheap and stupid). I have never seen the bunny hopping and hope I never have to (as well as the ducking head thing) but I think camping is most of the time fine. I could just as well run around a corner into a claymore; I don't think many of these things will be used in BRINK however there will always be broken and exploited mechanics and all we can hope for is a community of mature advlts that practices common courtesy and plays the game the way it is meant to be played.

This is what separates skilled players from unskilled players. Skilled players are able to use common sense and knowledge of the area to kill the camper while unskilled players take the same routes, use no strategy, and expect different results each time. Then get frustrated as they die.

I'm very much aware of what a ghandi hop is. I did it in halo 1, not just halo 2. Along with strong siding in halo 1. I had a 50 in MLG playlist just by playing by myself. I always got grounded back then so I could never find a decent team and by the time I could actually get to the competative level reach came out and totally ruined it for me.

I agree with you mate, im not a fan of sitting still myself, but im telling you whether or not you think its fun people will try it. Especially as i said, new players, I myself tried this when I started just the novelty of playing my first online shooter I had no concept of helping the team cap the flag or getting into the action I just wanted to shoot stuff, and I went on to be the double team champion of the uk and placed in the top 8 european teams multiple times, so i have a great understanding of team work. (To be fair there is like a 6 years gap between me starting online gaming and playing lan tournaments so I did have time to learn and develop lol)
I appreciate what your saying about the maps but from the videos ive seen I can see a few locations that look like you could just sit in and shoot from, granted I havent seen the whole map, or all of the maps so I could be wrong. Also a camper doesnt always have to use a sniper rifle a heavy medic hypothetically could find a nice spot and sit there with his minigun.
An obviously there is always the fact that camping isnt always bad, if you are aiding your team by holding that position then all the enemy players complaining about you doing so are just a testament to how well you are doing your job.



Apologies, I just thought you might have got the fact wrong. Sorry about that mate.


Yokudan and mathonn have got it exactly right. Just to clarify mathonn, when i mentioned the guy under the table, i didnt mean he'd be making me mad, Id be annoyed if he was on my side offering very little to the team. I was just using that as an example of camping in a negative way, you dont help, you dont move, you dont do very much at all.

from my experience of playing team fortress on the pc a few years back having a good sniper on your team was a good thing if he kept his sights on the frontline or guarding places of value to your team. that way he was assisting the team for the win. but what i hate is a sniper or camper that as you say just sits somewhere on the map regardless of where the battle is taking place just to get his own kill stats up. that's why cod is such a terrible game and why this should bring back the good old times of team fortress.

If cheap tactics exist, it is not the players fault. If the cheap tactic is well known, everyone uses it and if you choose not to, you are at a disadvantage. It is the job of the developer to FIX the cheap tactic and make the game balanced. That's called game design. It is also foolish of you to preach other gamers on how YOU think the game should be played and get mad at them if they don't play by YOUR rules. That is the definition of the word http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html.

As for the cheap tactics the original post mentioned, I laughed a little.

Bunnyhopping in games like Quake is the most effective means of movement. Technically it could be considered an exploit, but it is so far spread that it became a feature, everyone uses it and it takes skill to do well and it actually adds to the game. All in all, in all the games where bunnyhopping exists it takes at least a little bit of skill to do, which makes it an acceptable form of gameplay.

One form of "cheap tactic" which I have always hated is corner sitting. The most extreme form of camping where you just sit still in one corner and wait for someone to run by. Zone denial is a completely different concept, where you take control of a building or a hallway and keep checking all the entrances or peaking out of windows, that is fine.

Sorry about that, only the first paragraph was directly at you. The last one was a criticism of people that knowingly abuse themselves repeatedly and blame the camper more than themselves, that's just one of those "fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me" moments.

Again I was definitely not implying that you yourself are a moron, and I absolutely apologize for the misunderstanding. While I would certainly love a chance to play against anybody, I hope this serves to sort out any negative issues prior to such an encounter.

^^^^^ biggest wall of text I've ever seen in my life ^^^^^