There is no line. If they are allowed by the Dev then there's no such thing as cheating.

What more is there to argue. Please enlighten me. Why threads like this are still going is just an endless debate of UN-TESTED theories and the simple (im right, your a cheater) logic. Until we get in the game and test these addons out, we wont know how they will exactly run.

The assumption is that addon use is going to make another player much more effective than you are. I can tell you, in the case of one of the guys I play with, an addon that tells him more clearly when to dodge or block is great, since he has trouble seeing the more subtle cues to do so. Having the addon won't make him into some sort of epic gamer, but it will make it so he can respond to things and participate.

Well I don't really understand this thread entirely (draw the line) as that's entirely subjective but I think the dicussion is important.

Fact is in WoW there's no room for people that don't care about performance. In LFR if you don't have at least 1/3 of expect DPS you get kicked. If your go into Flex with people and you don't want to read a bunch of numbers and be on-time you get kicked (even when the content isn't tuned for perfection. In groups if you don't have acceptable DPS you get kicked.

Fact is some people don't want to play optimally, some people don't want to fall into the rut of caring how much damage they do or how well they do. And if the decision isn't made before the game begins, it's only going to get harder and harder to revert. People aren't going to wait to play the game because people can use add-ons, they're going to suffer through it anyway and we all know that misery likes company; those people after levelling will be less likely to support making options and toggles for non-mod users later.

At least that's how I think of it.

I mean I'm a raider now but back in early WoW days I hated add-ons. AS I started getting more serious I used them more and more and felt my hate waning. Now I consider them a "no biggy" but at the same time I also know that not using add-ons just made the game far more fun to me. I guess MMO sciety beat and molded me into what it finds is normal.

LOL lock for post limit only on page 8 more like locked for troll thread

I don't see why it's an issue. Allow people to use add-ons, DPS counts, gear score, whatever. If you don't want to be 'forced' into using them, start your own group or find one that's not using them. Is it really that hard and/or controversial?

Well...if I already don't care enough to monitor my performance or do so "poorly" that a group considers that they'll be better off spending time kicking me and finding another person a better use of their time, do you think I'll care enough to make my own group?

Mods are allowed. Sorry this isn't going to be like Guild Waiting 2.

If you don't want to use addons, don't use addons. Literally nobody is forcing you to. If you're afraid that your not going to get invited to groups because people will be able to know how poorly you're damaging/healing is, then just come out and say it, don't use people who use addons as a scapegoat. I raided for years in WoW without a single non-RP addon, I never had any problems.

If you're so worried about your performance, just make a better build. The only difference between someone with addons and someone without them is that the people with addons get to see the numbers.

this. We should not judge something we don't know. also i highly doubt Devs care about our opinion until we try it out either.

Take this story for a example:

I am a werewolf in "human" form and you as a PVP'er does not know that info (yet)

With out an addon, you as the PVP'er , will not know that I die fast if I am hit with silver weapons. (not cheating)

With an addon, you can just look at my stats and see that I am a "werewolf race" thus you just use the silver weapons. (cheating)

On the PVE side:

A certain boss does not like fire for whatever reason and does an ice attack.

With an addon, one could look at the stats of the said boss and know to 1) use fire damage weapons / spell 2) use defense against ice magic

With out an addon: One have to figure out how to beat the PVE boss (more fun to do, IMHIO) or use wiki to look that info up. (not a good way to do that, but at least it is not handed to you on a silver plant ingame.)

unless you've tried an add on yourself and are 100% certain it gives out such information... it's all just speculation

There are addon now that does that. They show buffs and defaults. Based on the story, that good or bad or is that cheating? As players, where do we draw the "line in the sand?"

i am not sure if all passives are displayed, cause it would have to display both armor/weapon/racial and etc passives if that is correct. As i mentioned before i will restrain myself from crying wolf until i test out the add on myself in the next beta...

draw the line idea.. thing is.. dev's probably won't care about this forum rambling.. especially until actual release or when it will be a feedback from people who have experienced it.

Addons don't show the stats of the enemy it shows your hps and buffs and debuffs not what your resistances or anything like that I don't know where you see that on any of the videos?

Personally I think werewolf/vampire status easily. If you have a weakness to silver in human form there's a likelyhood that you have a buff in human form to make up for it. However a person not being able to see you have a weakness while you gaining that buff in combat is a straight out advantage just for something as unimportant as being a werewolf. It's not like they can add silver to their hotbars mid-combat anyway.

As to the second, as you said, that's your opinion. You can never use "what is more fun?" to support a claim.

That's not strictly true. There are addons that Blizzard have banned that were created within the API framework they released. There is a cross-faction chat addon that was banned and another that auto swapped out rogue weapons when stacks of poison were reached, for instance.

Blizzard had to change the API a few years ago and again a year or so after that as clever addon devs had worked ways round the API system to allow them to do things that were considered to be 'against the spirit of fair play.' The addon called AVR "removes too much player reaction and decision-making while facing dungeon and raid encounters." More info at this link - http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/05/28/ready-check-avr-is-dead-what-did-we-learn/

Addons can cross the line and Zenimax need to watch how they develop very carefully.

I see, may be I made a mistake then. I been told by many people such a addon could be made since that info is pass to the local client. An addon just can display that info on screen from anything a client can "see". Also, the other thread was going until we hit the post limit -- just gave a chance for others to state how they define cheating -- what type of mods are consider "cheating" or not.

If you don't care enough, why should anyone else? Do they need to start catering to the lazy demographic now?

khajiits are known to be good spies, but be careful with what information you receive.. because it could just as easily be false or misleading..

Here's another issue with being able to see buffs on enemy targets through use of add-ons:

Without add-ons, you cannot see if an enemy has activated the Defensive Posture ability. That shield-using healing templar might just have prepared to reflect a sorcerer's supernuke right back at him.

With add-ons to show an enemy's buffs, the entire advantage is easily negated by first shooting the templar with a staff attack and following that up with the supernuke.

Show me on the doll where lazy people touched you?

Wouldn't the mage see when the ability was used anyway? Unless it has no visual indicator which I think is particularly unbalanced since we shouldn't be forced to waste a nuke either.

And if it's an instant cast *reflect the next ability* thing, well it's not like the Templar wouldn't use it until he sees the nuke being used.

It's an instant cast that lasts like 30 seconds. So you could have it up long before the enemy sees you.

It also doesn't have a very clear visual indicator when it is used.