Alright.

Well, then CHIM and zero-sum aren't the same at all, only the way of getting there is similar. Thanks for helping even though I used the word "limit" a bit too often.

There is still one thing I don't understand, and that is how you could possibly, at the moment of zero-summing, realize how to control your understanding and achieve CHIM.
But I suppose that's why I haven't achieved it myself.

In my opinion, the short answer is Love.

Universal, eternal, undying love and compassion. Seeing as Vehk is "polysixual," it makes a deal of sense. I'll try to take a shot at explaining it.

Think about it: Anuiel basically needed Sithis to know who he was; as I've said, he said I AM ANU and I AM NOT PADHOME. In this sense they need the other to survive--no, EXIST in general. But, if they need the other to exist...wouldn't it....wouldn't it seem like they were the same thing? Wouldn't it be like they were indeed part of something bigger than themselves, something that eternally connected them, something everlasting and undying. As with Anu and Padhome, it happened with Akatosh and Lorkhan. Akatosh first said I AM and then Lorkhan said I AM NOT.

Lorkhan failed by his own devices to literally show us how not to (he didn't necessarily Zero Sum, but he didn't achieve CHIM, as we can see). Why would he do this? Love. To share his gift with mortal-kind, the Tower. The "I". The letter written in "uncertainty: CHIM.

Someone who knows Love realizes that he doesn't die. The only death you TRULY have is of Love, the death of the individual as he is conjoined with all of existence...yeah, I kinda jacked that from Albides' sig, but I feel it holds much merit nonetheless.

http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml

I honestly thought of some of this last night before I went to sleep, but I've forgotten exactly what I said (thanks to this damned headache), but that's the best I can do right now. And I really hope I didn't confuse you with my ramblings...

Uh-huh? And is that a whimsical "sermons-of-vivec-like" answer, or does it come from somewhere more structured?

http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml

Those who do not fail become the New Men: an individual beyond all AE, unerased and all-being. Jumping beyond the last bridge of all existence is the Last Existence, The Eternal I.

heh, i was just looking at that

I still don't understand what CHIM is, really. My guess is it's the ability to redefine/defy (I'm not sure which) the Earthbones? In the case of it being to defy, would the Dwemer such as Kagrenac have technically had CHIM?

Thanks, I read it through and I say:
If this text is official, then yes, love is the answer. But is it official? :confused:
And it's still very unclear how you could integrate love into your understanding of the universe. Putting love into understanding is kind of... uh...
"I understand that this is a book. I understand it with love."
Wha...?
Do they mean that you should use what you gain from understanding, in a loving way?



Well, from the discussion in this thread, I think we all agreed on that CHIM is understanding that the universe is a lie. Nothing can be done without limits and counterparts, thus, the creator of everything can not have created the universe. What happens when you achieve CHIM, is that you gain unlimited power, but you can also control it.

What the heck is CHIM, anyway? the UESP has nothing to say on the subject...

I tried explaining it in the post above. Read through this topic to get the full resum?.

CHIM is the realization that you are everything and therefore nothing while still being able to retain your individuality.

Well, that would mean my player charicters have it, due to the fact that i usually shape their personalities so that they are aware they are in a game. however, most others don't believe my charicters.
"We're...Not real...Just mounds of polygons! we're at the command of some obese 13 year old!*"
"No...We're not."


*totally not me...Oh, alright...it is me.

Not necesssarily. The Dwemer essentially became the Anumidum. They Divided by 0, in a sense; they had a "nothing exists as a piece of existence" type of mentality.

I think the Dwemer anti-created themselves (at least tried to), as stated in the Trebonius report. (though that is not a discussion for this thread, and everything about the disappearance of the Dwemer is pure speculation)

Did the Dwemer Zero-Sum?

They essentially became the Numidium, like I said.

nah, they are still there...sorta... in CHIM one person becomes God, the Dwemer attempted to ALL become god by being adsorbed into the Anumidium. the process is different, but the end result is the same (or was suppose to be, the dwemer kinda messed it up). CHIM and the Numidium are only two of the ways to reach the Final Subradient that is the Godhead (see Loveletter).

Why does no one know the difference between a border and a boundary?

Or you could just do LOVE UNTO A HILLOCK.

You pirouette my remonstrance
While I proselytize your chastisemant,
A star in your mouth and two in my shadow
(The wise scarce open their mouths,
For fear of obliterating innumerable lesser worlds):
This sidereal intercourse births
A myriad soliloquy in the plenum.

CHIM is knowing its real.

-Would you know the difference, if asked to describe it?

Here you go:

"The difference between borders and boundaries is that borders are "matters of fact", geographically demarcated lines, whereas boundaries are the subjects of claim based on a perception by at least one of the parties of certain features - diacritical features - which distinguish it from others. Whether it refers to a collective condition, such as ethnic group identity, or to a more ephemeral 'personal space', boundary suggests contestability, and is predicated on consciousness of a diacritical property."

- Anthony Cohen

Even though I can't follow this, it's good to see you around, Arynel.

Oh, and I wanted to add that I have changed my opinion regarding CHIM (the one I first stated a few pages back), it is not stupid. Now that someone finally explained to me how CHIM is controlled, absolute power, I understand.

I take it you've now also found the fantasy-world-power-of-your-imagination-references I let slip?

This thread is pretty entertaining. Really.

Okay, here's my morsel, something that might lead you to understanding CHIM. Step 1:

Have a go at the Sermons and read them. While reading, try to answer the following question: To whom are these texts adressed?
When you can answer above question, ask yourself why Vivec specifically chose that adress. Also, keep in mind that they are titled "Lessons", so they are meant to teach you something, besides being poetry.
Another little hint, when you come across seemingly overly complicated passages: A lot of Vehk's Sermons are metaphors for things that are undescribable for most readers. Imagine someone never having seen or heard of "snow" before and you have to describe "snow" to him. You can't just say its snow, because he wouldn't understand it. Maybe you would say something along the lines of "it's like white, cold down falling from the clouds".
Vehk's doing exactly that, describing the "indescribable" in words that can be understood.

Above is not the definition of CHIM, but it is a way to realize it through one's own thinking. I've never said it would be easy.

No. I don't even know what a "fantasy-world-power-of-your-imagination-reference" is, so I don't know what I should be looking for.

Now i understand, All my character's shall from this day forth have chim

This may cound corny but its what im getting here.

The reason love stops you from 0-summing is because, if you love something with all your heart how can that love not exist? The strength of love helps your mind resist and stops you hfrom zero-summing, through knowind that the universe is a lie but knowing that your love is real you survive and unlock chim

Then you don't know you have Chim yet.