CHIM : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:03 am

There are different views about that too. The Altmer are of the opinion that Lorkhan was slain for his misdeeds and imprisoned in Mundus, yet others suggest that he mercifully gave his divinity to allow Mundus to last when all other gods would depart.
Anyway, this seems to be mostly an argument about what limitation is. The Altmer see Lorkhan as a limitation to their stasis, but you - or the Chimer- might as well say that it's the stasis that limited the Altmer from utilizing their full potential. There is no answer to this debate because it's fully dependant on your frame of reference.

We do however know that Lorkhan attempted to transcend everything, being able to rise above these, too see that these opposing sides are one and the same and their difference is only imaginary. Being free of mortal and divine concepts, hence his image as a liberator while also being seen as a limit.
Now what if the counter part was a lie and never existed? It was you all along.

The lover is the highest country and a series of beliefs. He is the sacred city bereft of a double. The uncultivated land of monsters is the rule. This is clearly attested by ANU and his double, which love knows never really happened. - http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml

You can't say that the existance of limits is a lie. Lies are a product of limitation, because if everything was possible, then no one would need them. Why would someone lie? To be able to do something which was not possible without the lie.

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:29 am

what proweler is saying is that possibility=limit, anu=phadhome, akatosh=lorhkan. everything is possible, but not everything IS. before lorhkan everything just was, or nothing was, which is really all the same.

[edit]thats CHIM really: realizing that everything is the same and therefore nothing exists while still retaining your individual identety.

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:57 am

what proweler is saying is that possibility=limit, anu=phadhome, akatosh=lorhkan. everything is possible, but not everything IS. before lorhkan everything just was, or nothing was, which is really all the same.

And that differs from what I've been saying this whole time in what way?

I have already said that when everything is possible, there is no need for anything, no passion, and thus, nothing happens. Everything just is. Lorkhan was the one who realized that there could exist limits, and through that, everything.

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:19 am

You can't say that the existence of limits is a lie.

You say a lie is the product of limitation, you could also say that limitation is the product of a lie.

Anu encompassed, and encompasses, all things. So that he might know himself he created Anuiel, his soul and the soul of all things. Anuiel, as all souls, was given to self-reflection, and for this he needed to differentiate between his forms, attributes, and intellects. Thus was born Sithis, who was the sum of all the limitations Anuiel would utilize to ponder himself. Anuiel, who was the soul of all things, therefore became many things, and this interplay was and is the Aurbis.

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:29 am

You say a lie is the product of limitation, you could also say that limitation is the product of a lie.

Anu encompassed, and encompasses, all things. So that he might know himself he created Anuiel, his soul and the soul of all things. Anuiel, as all souls, was given to self-reflection, and for this he needed to differentiate between his forms, attributes, and intellects. Thus was born Sithis, who was the sum of all the limitations Anuiel would utilize to ponder himself. Anuiel, who was the soul of all things, therefore became many things, and this interplay was and is the Aurbis.

No, because a being with no limits has no reason to lie. The soul purpouse of lieing is to make yourself able to do, or access, something that you would not be able to otherwise. And that is limitation. Without limits there is nothing, as I said above. No one does anything without limits, because then everything has already been done.

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:22 am

Anu encompassed, and encompasses, all things. So that he might know himself he created Anuiel, his soul and the soul of all things. Anuiel, as all souls, was given to self-reflection, and for this he needed to differentiate between his forms, attributes, and intellects. Thus was born Sithis, who was the sum of all the limitations Anuiel would utilize to ponder himself. Anuiel, who was the soul of all things, therefore became many things, and this interplay was and is the Aurbis.

Anu here exist, bereft of a double, broken in two so that he might know himself. This very dichotomy is a lie. The whole reallity of the Aurbis that they created is a lie.

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:30 am

Anu encompassed, and encompasses, all things. So that he might know himself he created Anuiel, his soul and the soul of all things. Anuiel, as all souls, was given to self-reflection, and for this he needed to differentiate between his forms, attributes, and intellects. Thus was born Sithis, who was the sum of all the limitations Anuiel would utilize to ponder himself. Anuiel, who was the soul of all things, therefore became many things, and this interplay was and is the Aurbis.

Anu here exist, bereft of a double, broken in two so that he might know himself. This very dichotomy is a lie.

The very fact that Anu did something without limits is a big fat hole in reason. Why would he need to split into two to know himself, if he was not limited? It was his inability to reflect upon himself that made him create the two halves of himself. So in this text, there is limit, and from it springs the lie.

The universe is a lie.

No one could have created it, because no one can do anything without limits. Yet, when nothing exists, before the universe, there are no limits.

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:08 am

No one could have created it, because no one can do anything without limits. Yet, when nothing exists, before the universe, there are no limits.

... and that's why Moth priest Zero-Sum.

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:50 am

The very fact stasis did anything is a lie in itself; "stasis asks merely for itself, which is nothing."

Anu lied and tried to say that something else wasn't him: I AM ANU and I AM NOT PADHOME.

edit: Dude...why don't you just evaporate?? Lol.

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:48 am

The very fact stasis did anything is a lie in itself; "stasis asks merely for itself, which is nothing."

Anu lied and tried to say that something else wasn't him: I AM ANU and I AM NOT PADHOME.

edit: Dude...why don't you just evaporate?? Lol.

What?

Anyway, I think this is some seriously deep stuff that's applicable to real life

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:19 am

What?
Anyway, I think this is some seriously deep stuff that's applicable to real life

Mabye this is dreamsleeve and when we die we're cast into The tes world?

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:33 pm

What do you mean "what?" Was just trying to help explain what proweler is saying, but in a discussion of truths-that-are-lies, I guess one could get confused...

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:25 am

Dude...why don't you just evaporate?? Lol.

That's what Chim does.

---

For anybody who didn't catch the in-joke. http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/sporedream.shtml on the realization. Simplified the realisation of Chim prevents that because you know you are what the world comes from. The world is a lie, but you are the source of that fantasy.

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:48 am

What do you mean "what?" Was just trying to help explain what proweler is saying, but in a discussion of truths-that-are-lies, I guess one could get confused...

I meant the evaporate part, but proweler explained it.

» Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:20 pm

That's what Chim does.

I was talking about M'Aiq.

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:50 am

I was talking about M'Aiq.

So was I.

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:13 am

Oh yeah...damn...I need to stop drinking...

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:23 am

So was I.

Why are you talking about me? I said I understand the reference now.

Now, let's continue the discussion. We have all agreed that Lorkhan is the source of limitation in the plane of mortality, right? Well, if one would then destroy Lorkhan, the source of limits, and at the same time realising that the universe is a lie, would you become a god with unlimited CHIM, who is everywhere and always was everywhere, doing everything, and thus, creating a perfect world? Or, undo the world?

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 12:15 am

To the first part, that was my fault due to one of my many mental lapses...

Tot he second, if you "killed" Lorkhan, if that's even feasible, you'd probably screw the Aurbis. Also, in the Aurbis, if you "knew" it was a lie, you'd Zero Sum, stopping you from doing jack crap.

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:20 am

To the first part, that was my fault due to one of my many mental lapses...

Tot he second, if you "killed" Lorkhan, if that's even feasible, you'd probably screw the Aurbis. Also, in the Aurbis, if you "knew" it was a lie, you'd Zero Sum, stopping you from doing jack crap.

But the world would logically stop existing, wouldn't it then? It would be free of limits, and thus, be nothing.

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:55 am

Why are you talking about me? I said I understand the reference now.
Now, let's continue the discussion. We have all agreed that Lorkhan is the source of limitation in the plane of mortality, right? Well, if one would then destroy Lorkhan, and at the same time realising that the universe is a lie, would you become a god with unlimited CHIM, who is everywhere and always was everywhere, doing everything, and thus, creating a perfect world? Or, undo the world?

But if you were to destroy lork you would destroy the world. And reliseing that the unverse is a lie will make you sum-zero.

aww, 9 got there first ;(

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:31 am

If you'd destroy a GOD, it would destroy the world.

You'd erase their sphere from the world, which you can't do. If you destroy Kynareth, Air would go away. If you destroyed Arkay, people wouldn't be able to die.

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 12:04 pm

Jesus H. Christ! Limitation vs. Irrationality vs. all those other words by people who actually understand them... these are NOT CONFLICTING THEORIES. This isn't a case of who killed Cuhlecain, it's the same thing through different spiritual worldviews. So you can't continually parrot and apply them while using a Webster's definition of the word.

Case in point: Sithis is the only reason Anuiel ever did anything. It is possibility to action. But he is also a form of limit because Anuiel is static everything, and your perception of everything at once requires a lense and a partition to perceive it at all. It needs definition, which compared to looking at the entire universe at once, is 'limiting.'

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:46 am

but... but, there are no limitations to CHIM. That's what it is. Besides, realizing that the universe is a lie wouldn't amount to CHIM, you'd have to have the realization and then still be able to say, "[censored] that, I'm still me" else you'd zero sum.

EDIT: ^ in response to M'Aiq, not paw-prints

» Sun Sep 05, 2010 12:52 am

If you'd destroy a GOD, it would destroy the world.

It depends on what this god represents, I think. In Lorkhans case, he is the god of limits and possibility, so if he was destroyed, things would be reverted back to pre-mundus stage.