my god, shut up about the limits already, they dont matter. you can limit yourself because you can do what ever you want.

Limits have EVERYTHING to do with CHIM. The point of having CHIM is to have unlimited power, is it not? To remove your limits?
And also, there is no point in being rude. I'm not telling you to shut up because you don't share my views.

Don't like being proven wrong do you

proven wrong? nah, i dont mind that. its just kinda annoying hearing about the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.....

i really dont understand what youre even saying. one minute youre stating that CHIM is pointless because you cant do anything (due to having no limits) and the next youre saying you have unlimited power. yes, CHIM has no 'limits' in that you can do anything. anything includes giving yourself 'limits'. this discussion is a pointless circle, lets 'limit' it :dance:

Okay, how about this. Find a synonym for limits, anything to stop repeating this watchword over and over again, meaning next to nothing each time.

I'm saying that ultimate power means doing nothing, because you have already done everything at all times at once.

Achieving CHIM is done through understanding, is it not? The How do you control understanding? It's impossible! If I noticed that my dog just died, I understand that. But I can't say, "hey, I think I'm only going to experience a part of what I just saw."
It's not your choice. You do not have the power to control your understanding of the universe, and thus, you can't control yourself when you are unavoidably given ultimate and unrestrained power. This makes you do everything at the same time, everywhere.

Ooooh, I like this explanation.

I like the dream anology; I've had dreams like that, where I realize I can undo a mistake or something... but I haven't woken up, thought to myself "hmm, I wish I hadn't fallen off that cliff," gone back to sleep, and then re-thought the whole dream scenario again... Except, I suppose in the case of CHIM, you can move mountains because they are you.

Woah... so, is Vehk more powerful than the Daedra? Or, is his influence to Daedra-mouth-eff only limited to beings (such as Daedra) that come into the influence of Mundus. In other words, Vivec might not have been able to do those unmentionable things to Azura had he attempted to execute them in her realm. So, is the power of CHIM limited to the Mundus/Nirn?

Your argument is contradictory. So you may be wrong. Chim is contradictory by nature and is about muting those contradictions. So you are definitely wrong.

No, I am not. Because the inability to control this understanding comes before achieving CHIM.

And also, how come the pre-mundus world just was? If they could have controlled CHIM, then they could have created the mortal world before Lorkhan came.

what you just described to me is more akin to zero-sum than to CHIM. CHIM is experiencing this revelation and yet retaining control, knowing that you are everything and yet still having an individual identity. that is what gives CHIM its power. by retaining your identity you continue to operate inside mundus at the same time as without it - and mundus moves in linear time. it is within mundus that you have ultimate power because you can see beyond it. clearly everything has not yet happened in nirn....

Gosh darnit, it's basically choosing a positive lie as opposed to a negative lie.

Which is a poor, but true, explanation of it that I offer up in a futile attempt to make you stop.

edit: And LN has nailed it...for like the 1000th time, as others have. I hope THAT will help you learn, as well.

I see. Finally a post where someone tries to explain rather than calling me an idiot and saying I'm wrong.

It makes more sense now, but I still don't understand how you could control your understanding of something.



EDIT: And to 946000 below: I won't start a flame war if that's what you are trying to achieve. That I begin to understand your point of view is purely because of LN's explanation, not yours, so you don't have any right to call me stupid.

Haven't you read Vehk's Teaching? Basically says that, but with COLORS AND PRETTY WORDS!

No one awnsered me.


What is chim

So, is zero-summing sort of self-anihilation? Like, you get so torn between two things, mentally, that you sort of just over-load and revert to babbling nonsense? Or, you become so self contradictory that you cease to exist? :confused:

Actually...they did, Praise.

Read http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml for the source.

To Alaisiagae: you basically cease to exist. Thus the term "Zero Sum:" you literally cancel out.

Well ok. Let's say this:

CHIM is being able to control absolute power.
Zero-Summing is not being able to control your absolute power? That won't work.

yep. you realize that you are everything and therefore nothing, and *poof* CHIM is that without the poof part.

946000, you made my day :celebration:

I'll first say I wasn't trying to start a war, before I get warned for no reason. Just a mere (and apparently bad) attempt at humor. I'll apologize for that. I thought you actually read Vehk's Teaching, since you posted a thread about it; CHIM threads sometimes get posted here frequently.

All I was trying to say is that LN basically "translated" what Vehk said.

To your actual question, in a sense, yes and no: you have no power when you Sum. You just cant handle the "dawning."

to LN: Awww, thanks for that. I'm glad I did, lol ^_^

I know this is repetitive, but as I said, not being able to control absolute power ends in a disaster. There must be something "up there" which controls those who zero-sum, and thus, it is not complete freedom. But I agree now that CHIM is complete freedom, if one wishes for it.

(and also, I have read most of Vehk's sermons, but they are so cryptic that nothing can be taken for a fact)

It's not the Sermons. It's his Teaching, http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml.

And as one who is becoming increasingly annoyed about the whole "Vehk is a liar" thing, I'll say it's moreso confusing rather than embellishing of fact. And I'm not directing any animosity at you; just expressing personal disdain about the subject.

Ah, I see, thanks.

those that zero-sum disappear from existence, so there is no need for anything to be controlling them. they vanish before they reach ultimate powah.

http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml are not the Sermons. the sermons contain a lot of good stuff too, but they are much harder to understand. taken together with supplementary materials, like the teachings and the loveletter, they become much easier however.

[edit] ninja'd

Now that I started reading the teachings, I realized I have read them Just didn't remember the name.

But as far as zero-sum goes:

Does it mean anti-creating yourself? Completely disappearing and never having existed? Then you have no power at all, and it is not much like CHIM, but it is complete and utter freedom.

Someoen in the past said something like that. Nah, Zero Summing means you STOP existing; it doesn't erase you from EVER existing.