Does anyone in Nirn, except Vivec, have CHIM?

Say, Tosh Raka, the Tiger-Dragon?

Also In the event vehk does have chim, would it be possible that his connection to lorkhan who is limitation astop him from using it?

He lost that connection before he attained CHIM. He attained it between the events of Morrowind and Oblivion.

There are hints that Tiber Septim had/has it. Notably in the Mythic Dawn Commentaries.


That seems just a straightforward case of mantling. No hint of CHIM.


Limitation? Huh? Lorkhan is a symbol of freedom. If you want to get metaphorical about it, you could say that's why he's missing. He's the prometheus bringing the flame to mortals. Or at least that's how some texts portray him.

"And this thing I have thought of, I have named it, and I call it http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/songofpelinal.shtml. Which I think is just another word for Shezarr Who Goes Missing...

Sithis is described as limitation by the Altmer, because of what was done to them and what they prefer; which is a static eternity of a sheltered existence in Heaven. They don't view the mundus favourably, though it was what allowed the possibility of CHIM.

But padomay is limitation and lorkhan is padomays son.

"One of these, Lorkhan, was more of a limit than a nature, so he could never last long anywhere.
As he entered every aspect of Anuiel, Lorkhan would plant an idea that was almost wholly based on limitation."

- The Monomyth


In my opinion, he is not missing because he's freedom, but because he is limitation; irrationality.
When something is not completely free, it has to do things that are not optimal, thus, this beings actions can be irrational.

I don't think you're getting me. Like I said, "limitation" as far as Altmer and similar ideologies are concerned. Which sounds more limiting to you; order or disorder? To the Altmer, disorder was limiting because it antagonised their static "everlasting realms of imperfection" as the Dunmer called them. To the Chimer, Anuiel's order was more limiting because "enslaved everything that Sithis had made and created realms of everlasting imperfection". So they rejected Altmer culture and formed their own based on padomaic principles, like change and adaptation.

"Sithis sundered the nothing and mutated the parts, fashioning from them a myriad of possibilities."

Does that sound limiting or does that sound liberating? You do know what Sithis is and what he does, right?

True freedom is not in either of these concepts, as they are just the interplay of a statement and that statement's denial. IS and IS NOT, which are more or less interchangeable when you meditate on how one defines the other. True freedom is that of embracing dichotomies and moving beyond them, and it's what Lorkhan made possible through the enlightenment of the endeavour. CHIM and all that.

Some texts are quite specific that Lorkhan created the world is a sort of proving ground for moving beyond the gods and beyond the limitations of all worlds. Whether you believe it or not is up to you, but you should at least be aware of it.


Again, who is telling this story?

Now I go to bed.

I'm not seeing your point here. The question is not what freedom is. The question is: does the fact that Lorkhan exists as a limit, as order, affect wheter omnipotency is possible by a being of Nirn? And, yes, of course it does! If there was no order, no limitations, then everyone would have CHIM. So if Lorkhan would be removed from existance, order would disappear, but so would limitation, because order is built upon limitation (though Akatosh would of course still structure things a bit (unless Lorkhan and Akatosh are the same )).

You can't say that Lorkhan is order but not limitation, because one builds on the other.

I'm saying he doesn't exist as either of these things, except by skewed interpretation from Altmer regretting the loss of their godhoods! That's why he needed the Aedra.

CHIM necessarily encompasses both order and disorder, as a way of moving beyond a dichotomy that structures the entire universe. Now I'm going to bed. I nominate Proweler to explain further in my stead. I have 40 pages of Tales of a Dying Earth left and I want to finish it tonight.

How can you now that the altmer were lying?

They could be the ones telling the truth.

Albides didn't say that the Altmer were lying. All he said is that Lorkhan is a being of limitation to them because of their views of the creation of Nirn.

Nothing more, nothing less.

So you are basically denying the whole Lorkhan creation myth? You know that the Lorkhan creation myth is just what it says, a myth, and it is up to each and his own to believe in it or not. There is no "over-power" who has ever said: "this is how the mortal plane was created, and it is a fact."

But since the mortal plane DOES exist, and because it has limitations, there is a chance that it does come from Lorkhan, that and he is the reason to why we have limits. There is no obvious true or false here.

Indeed, the Altmer -just as everybody else- have a certain http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/commentary/alttext/2008/07/alttext_0730 in which they interpret things. It's what they use to define the world around them.

Exactly, just like everybody else. That's why the assumption that Lorkhan is limitation is as valid as any other theory. And it can be supported by the fact that most creation myths are based on the idea that Lorkhan created the first plane which had any kind of true limitation.

What is CHIM, anyway? :confused:

As valid as any other theory, to the Altmer. Yes.

It's irrelevant that the Altmer think of Lorkhan as a limit. They already thought them self omnipotent and were unaware of their own limitations. Now you could say that Lorkhan traded one limitation for another, but it's the realization that one limitation can only be traded for another that allows for a way to escape it.

Mankar tries to imprint the same believes on his followers. Just look at his torture cells, one goes, the other falls down. Although I suspect he does it to show that somebody must suffer for their gain, not so much as means to become aware that The Other is you.

Epic win :rofl:


Its realising that you exist thus gaining control over the univerese.

It's valid for others too. If Lorkhan would not have created limitation in the world, then no one would be aware of their limits, and thus, the limitation that is Lorkhan would have become an issue for everyone, had he "created it" later.

Have a look at this

"The Son is myself, Vehk, and I am unto three, six, nine, and the rest that come after, glorious and sympathetic, without borders, utmost in the perfections of this world and the others, sword and symbol, pale like gold."

-36 lessons of vivec, book 6.

Borderless?Perfect?
This is evidence that vehk had chim all along.

Lorhkan is limitation to the altmer because he is what removed them from being gods. before he created the world they were the et'ada, with the creation of nirn they became mere mortals. and they were pissed. the men saw this another way: lorhkans creation of the world was a gift to them, a gift of freedom from the burdens of godhood. men have the right of it, because through Lorhkan they can ascend into a state higher than the gods. unless you believe absolute power to be limiting...

then again, i really dont know what all this has to do with CHIM

(i have a feeling this post makes no sense but ill submit it anyhow :poke:)

[edit] "all along" is once again relative. vehk was always a god and yet he was at one time a mortal. besides, we dont know when the sermons were written so we dont know when he achieved CHIM.

The men of the world were created due to Lorkhans desire to create a world of limitation. Without limitation there is no passion, because all is possible, and nothing needs to be done, and even less is to be passionate over. Lorkhan is limitation, and because of that, he is irrational. As I have said before, irrationality is the product of not being able to do things in the optimal way, which is the way with no limits. He saw something in limitation that the others did not see until he had created it. And that is why the daedra lords take such interest in the mortal world; irrationality, passion. Something which their servants lack.

Point proven, i don't think anyopne can argue with that.

Oh, wait they can and will.

it was lorkhan's desire to create a world of possibility and of potential (the gray maybe), not one of limits. before mundus everything was or nothing was, black and white, no gradient of intermediate possibility. through creating mundus he limited unlimited existence to create possibility, freedom, a world limitless only in potential. there are no limits to potential in nirn, as is demonstrated by the very existence of CHIM.

Lorkhans irrationality, his insanity, is caused by seeing the truth of this world. "the get of Padhome tried to leave it all behind for he wanted all of it and none of it all at once. It was then that he came to the border of the Aurbis. He saw the Tower, for a circle turned sideways is an ?€?"I?€?. This was the first word of Lorkhan and he would never, ever forget it." Lorkhan realized the final sub-gradient, but chose not to take it.

(this post should be better. meh, im still such a newb at this :shakehead: )



possibility does not exist without "limitation" because everything already IS.

here is what i dont get: are you arguing that Lorkhan, anon Padhome which is change, is a symbol of Order?

Yes, but you are saying the same thing as me. Possibility doesn't exist if there are no limits, because a thing cannot exist without a counterpart. For example, I wouldn't know what being full was if there was no hunger. So through Lorkhans introduction of limitation, there was created possibility, and everything in-between.



I haven't been saying anything else.

Lorkhan is possibilty through being limitation.


Have you ever seen order which is not based upon laws? I have not. Laws are limits.

There are different views about that too. The Altmer are of the opinion that Lorkhan was slain for his misdeeds and imprisoned in Mundus, yet others suggest that he mercifully gave his divinity to allow Mundus to last when all other gods would depart.


Anyway, this seems to be mostly an argument about what limitation is. The Altmer see Lorkhan as a limitation to their stasis, but you - or the Chimer- might as well say that it's the stasis that limited the Altmer from utilizing their full potential. There is no answer to this debate because it's fully dependant on your frame of reference.

We do however know that Lorkhan attempted to transcend everything, being able to rise above these, too see that these opposing sides are one and the same and their difference is only imaginary. Being free of mortal and divine concepts, hence his image as a liberator while also being seen as a limit.



Now what if the counter part was a lie and never existed? Say it was you all along.